Liminal Podcast

Tiger King

April 27, 2020 Gordon Hall and Joe Pearson Season 1 Episode 2
Liminal Podcast
Tiger King
Chapters
Liminal Podcast
Tiger King
Apr 27, 2020 Season 1 Episode 2
Gordon Hall and Joe Pearson

Gordon and Joe discuss the phenomenon of “Tiger King”, the Netflix documentary about the self proclaimed king, Joe Exotic and Big Cat Rescue’s Carole Baskin’s diabolical relationship that united millions of people across the world.

Show Notes

Check out this episode on YouTube!

Note: Saff (one of the zookeepers who worked for Joe) was misgendered throughout the series. When talking about him, Gordon and Joe use his preferred pronouns, which may cause confusion to listeners who were not aware of this.

Further Reading

The only not-awful person in Tiger King is a trans man who was misgendered throughout the series
Tiger King's creators say Joe Exotic's racism was cut from the Netflix documentary
'Everyone Had a Different Story.' Tiger King Popularity Leads Sheriff to Reopen the Case of Don Lewis's Disappearance
Tiger King Joe Exotic's niece claims he froze dead tiger cubs to sell
21 Important Tiger Poaching Statistics

Liminal Podcast is about dealing with change, be that through humour, self-care, science, or spirituality. Join Joe and Gordon as they laugh and ponder, as well as speak to experts and friends, trying to figure out how to deal with life when the rug has been pulled from under your feet.

We’d love to hear from you! If you want to get in touch click here.

Liminal Podcast couldn’t happen without the support of our team, as always massive thank you to Harry for writing the theme music, Haley for creating our logo and Leah for everything she does behind the scenes. Thank you to everyone who rates and reviews the show, we really appreciate it.

Subscribe to Liminal Podcast

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YouTube
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Follow us on social media

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Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/theliminalpod)

Show Notes Transcript

Gordon and Joe discuss the phenomenon of “Tiger King”, the Netflix documentary about the self proclaimed king, Joe Exotic and Big Cat Rescue’s Carole Baskin’s diabolical relationship that united millions of people across the world.

Show Notes

Check out this episode on YouTube!

Note: Saff (one of the zookeepers who worked for Joe) was misgendered throughout the series. When talking about him, Gordon and Joe use his preferred pronouns, which may cause confusion to listeners who were not aware of this.

Further Reading

The only not-awful person in Tiger King is a trans man who was misgendered throughout the series
Tiger King's creators say Joe Exotic's racism was cut from the Netflix documentary
'Everyone Had a Different Story.' Tiger King Popularity Leads Sheriff to Reopen the Case of Don Lewis's Disappearance
Tiger King Joe Exotic's niece claims he froze dead tiger cubs to sell
21 Important Tiger Poaching Statistics

Liminal Podcast is about dealing with change, be that through humour, self-care, science, or spirituality. Join Joe and Gordon as they laugh and ponder, as well as speak to experts and friends, trying to figure out how to deal with life when the rug has been pulled from under your feet.

We’d love to hear from you! If you want to get in touch click here.

Liminal Podcast couldn’t happen without the support of our team, as always massive thank you to Harry for writing the theme music, Haley for creating our logo and Leah for everything she does behind the scenes. Thank you to everyone who rates and reviews the show, we really appreciate it.

Subscribe to Liminal Podcast

Apple Podcasts
YouTube
Spotify
Stitcher

Follow us on social media

Facebook
Instagram
Twitter
TikTok

Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/theliminalpod)

Gordon Hall :

Hello, and welcome to Episode Two of lemons podcast. My name is Gordon, my name is Joe. How you doing today? Jay?

Joe Pearson :

I am very, very good. It's a beautiful sunny day feeling good. How about yourself?

Gordon Hall :

Yes, I'm feeling fantastic in real time for us. We've just released the first episode of the podcast we're getting some great reviews from people. People are really enjoying it. And I mean how does it feel to finally released this podcast? Oh,

Joe Pearson :

it's been a weight off the shoulders. It's took a little while to do it. And there's a lot of work that goes into it actually, which has surprised me and kept us busy in these kind of not boring but kind of stagnant times that we're in right now. Yeah, we have exploded on social media, as you might have seen at the liminal underscore on pretty much every platform available, most notably on Tick tock, if you weren't here last week, Gordon played a little trick on me. And it's quite a funny video of that available on the Liminal underscore pod. So this week actually had an idea and it's Tick Tock related again, as we're friends, Gordon, I actually have your phone number. So what I'm going to do now so we have what I'm going to expect you to do by the time this episode is released, and we're going to release it on Tick Tock. We'll just send that over to you right about now. Oh, God, you want to read out what I've sent to you. You want me to

Gordon Hall :

dress up as Joe exotic and do the tiger dance. What's that? Now

Joe Pearson :

my tik tok expert. That is my girlfriend has explained that there's a tiger King dance that people are doing on Tick Tock. Most people actually end up dressing up as Joe exotic. And if you're not seeing the picture of Gordon if you don't know Gordon go and look on our website. Gordon doesn't look too far away from what Jerry exotic looks. He's got slightly longer hair but Think with the right kind of work. You can do a pretty good job exotic impression.

Gordon Hall :

I'm gonna pretend you didn't say that. But I think I found the video that you're talking about. Is it is it this song here, mate? Can't believe you're making me do this.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, you made me do something pretty embarrassing last week for everyone so

Gordon Hall :

yeah, that was you. It wasn't me. totally fair. Only fair. Not happy.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, head over to tick saw that video should be posted now Gordon doing it unless he's pitched out but I don't think you will think you'll have to do this

Gordon Hall :

not liking you right now. Joe.

Joe Pearson :

Hey, over then You're ridiculous dancing. Gordon. And what have you been up to? Obviously we recorded a couple of weeks ago. The original podcasts, any changes?

Gordon Hall :

Yeah. Well, we released the podcast, which the massive way of my shoulders. I've started playing drums again, which is quite nice, myself a nice little drum kit and I seem to have developed a habit of falling asleep in random places in my flat that aren't my bed. What about you? Yeah, I've

Joe Pearson :

not been sleeping in random places I'm quite good at getting in my bed. The only issue I have is I getting quite late at night. Kind of condones the thing I've been doing. I've started yoga, I've not been running as my major. I've started yoga, but actually doing it pretty much every day, sometimes even twice a day. For my half an hour, 40 minutes. I do it less as a meditation thing more as a stretching thing. If you're not aware, I'm quite a tall man. So I occasionally get a bit of back pain. The leg just cracks when I stand up and stuff and all of that it's gone now. So I'm enjoying

Gordon Hall :

amazing what what are you using for the or is it like an app or YouTube or are you just doing it on your own mat.

Joe Pearson :

I started off with an app was a nine minute yoga app, but I got to the app store which is quite good actually. Got nothing for my family that do yoga. So I've kind of borrowed a couple of bucks stuff. What you'll find is if anyone does any kind of sports or athletics for example, it is mainly stretching. So it is just working out what do you want to stretch and finding great way to do that? The hardest part of yoga, which I didn't really expensive breathing, you have to regulate your breathing. We think that's easy. It's really not not when you're stretching in a weird position.

Gordon Hall :

Fantastic. So we caught up a couple of days ago about Tiger King and we're gonna play that tape now. Here we go. So, Joe, let's be real here a month ago, our lives got changed pretty drastically. And I'm not talking about COVID-19. What happened? What did we experience together or be separated?

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, we were virtually connected via net cliques party and we watched what is now the common epidemic is demick world that is Tiger King. Oh, yeah, crazy, crazy show. But like I've not had a day on social media where I've not seen some reference to the show. No,

Gordon Hall :

it's absolutely insane. Just the way that is rip, the world is mad. I mean, everyone seems to have seen it. I can't. It's rare that I meet someone that's not even if they haven't seen it. They've at least heard of it. They at least have some kind of working knowledge of the people who are kind of involved in it and stuff like that. And if you've not seen it yet, what the hell have you been doing for the last month? Seriously, just press stop right now. Go sit down in front of your TV. And just watch Netflix for the next eight hours because you will not regret it. I promise you.

Joe Pearson :

But yeah, incredible, incredible show. So much to talk about. I mean, where do we even begin with a show like this? We've I think one of us just seen it on net. When we sat down to do on these ethics parties and it might have been Nika. Yeah. You just said, why don't we just watch that? It's pretty cool. We'll just click play and watch four episodes. back the back. Yeah, we just couldn't stop I think was about two in the morning. Most of us were half fully asleep. And we we wanted to keep watching them to be honest.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah, absolutely incredible. It was absolutely insane. I'm used to bingeing stuff myself where you know, you don't even pause between when one episode finishes. And the next episode starts the fact that we were doing that with all of us, in different parts of the country, or watching at the same time, for four hours straight had to be a gripping show for that that certainly, but before

Joe Pearson :

we get into the kind of juice of x, of course, there's some crazy characters in this show. absolutely crazy, crazy characters. There is actually quite a serious side to this show, which I don't think they really explored at all. It kind of pointed out in the mistreatment of animals. They alluded to the fact that maybe some died, and in interviews but they didn't really give you any facts or any statistics on that.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah. Well, I mean, there was one stat that I spotted throughout the whole of the series. It was right at the start. And it said five to 10,000 tigers are currently in captivity in the USA. Less than 4000 left in the wild. It's absolutely in shock. Yeah.

Joe Pearson :

pretty shocking. It's hard. He's a pet Really? Yeah. I mean, we in the UK, we reserved for it as a zoo. A lot of these. I wouldn't even call them zoo is pretty much like no Tiger experience centre, where you just get to sit down with a club that about you. But when I go to the zoo, you're behind the glass pane where Tigers got loads place to roam. And if that Tiger was to run at you and try and knock you over is more than welcome to do so. Yeah.

Gordon Hall :

I think there is a distinction that has to be made between the zoos. Like what you see in Tiger King and you know, if they call them zoos, we'll call them zoos for argument's sake here. But there is a distinction between what that is and between something like London Zoo or just the zoo or something like that. I'm not saying that either of them are right in the grand scheme of things. I personally am not a huge fan of zoos in any capacity. But I recognise there is a difference here between what do exotic is doing and what the owners of justice are doing. And I want to make sure that there's a distinction made there.

Joe Pearson :

I think zoos do feel some purpose, though. There is obviously very endangered species that they help out with the certain conservation that's needed, actually, to help certain species survive and thrive. There's clearly a lot of good work that goes on. But a lot of these particularly in America, there seems to be like tourist traps to try and drag people in for an experience you can't get elsewhere. And the animals are the ones that have to suffer for that. Fortunately, yeah,

Gordon Hall :

and that that is the really sad thing. And these animals are used to having massive planes to run around in forests, their natural habitats, and these natural habitats are not just No big space that they can be in. They can't just be replaced. Because it's the ecosystem. This means that these animals can thrive and other wildlife around them can thrive. And you know, we've only got 7% of the historical habitats where Tigers used to roam in the wild, only 7% of them are currently occupied with animals, which is ridiculous.

Joe Pearson :

A lot of that probably comes from deforestation, particularly in places like Brazil, where the farmers and our economies have very bad ways. And they have to use the forestation to actually survive. And fortunately, absolutely, a lot of the governments really have similar policies to the rest of the world. That probably plays a massive part. I mean, for people that don't know you actually used to be part of the WWF. The World Wildlife Fund. I'm right, yeah,

Gordon Hall :

well, I used to so I worked as a fundraiser for an agency but the charity that we worked on behalf of the majority of my time, there was WWF. So I know a lot of information about tigers and other wild animals in the illegal wildlife trade because that's what I had talked about day in, day out a good few months of my life. What what's

Joe Pearson :

the general public's perception on this kind of thing when you're talking to people, most likely people that probably didn't really expect that conversation to be sprung upon them? Was this similar themes? Do people care Really? Or do people pretend to care?

Gordon Hall :

I think a lot of the time, it's when people realise the reality of the situation, then they do care. But more often than not, people try to kind of put their fingers in their ears try to argue away Why the things aren't going on. Or, you know, people try and bury their heads in the sand and pretend that this isn't going on because it can be too much to handle. And more often than not, these things are covered up as well. It was

Joe Pearson :

America of your work, when you were funding and stuff like that, or was it more of Asia and maybe Africa, or was it kind of everything?

Gordon Hall :

So our focus, the campaign that we were working on was to do with the illegal wildlife trade. So it was primarily focused on Africa and Asia, because that's the countries where the animals that we were focusing on a from, but it was it was looking at the broader illegal wildlife trade as well.

Joe Pearson :

And when you say illegal wildlife trade, do you mean in terms of people killing the animals and poaching them that style? Or is it actually just selling it? The kind of private owners like we see a lot in America

Gordon Hall :

so it can be either really the illegal wildlife trade is in the top three largest illegal trades up there with drug trafficking and human trafficking. So it really is a multi billion dollar industry trading in dead animals trading an animal part in living animals, but all kinds of reasons whether it's to use the Tigers as trophies, you see people whether it's for kind of a taxidermy point of view or whether it's, as we've seen a lot in Tiger King pets and exhibits and stuff like that, which can be very cool. A lot of tiger cubs are bought and sold and then once they are not cute anymore, kind of like To be killed and stuff like that, but one of the biggest reasons why tigers are bought and sold and killed at the moment is because of traditional medicine still, sadly, whereabouts does that normally go to? I mean, I can't imagine that 100 in

Joe Pearson :

the UK is just

Gordon Hall :

kind of Asia or so it's it's traditional Chinese medicines. It's things like eyeballs being used as a treatment for malaria or epilepsy, I guess skin can be used to cure a fever or mental illness. And these are claims that are made. And as a result, people buy and sell these poor, innocent animals to the point where one Tigers being killed every single day, and it is heartbreaking.

Joe Pearson :

What's the lore of Tigers what why in this show, do we consistently see evil deeply young people just get drawn in and they dominate their lives with these targets? What is the actual appeal?

Gordon Hall :

is a power thing? Potentially?

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, I mean, they dominate their lives. They They basically build their whole life around these animals. They dress head to toe in air, they build an image like Joe exotic did made shows he made his own show brought a dancer in like

Gordon Hall :

music. Little like merchandise. I'm pretty sure he was showing off his Tiger themed underwear that he was selling to people in the shop is Ooh, it's I guess it's it's that is the power thing. It's there. You know, as Joe's name suggests, the exotic thing that I think a lot of it is because there's such poor education as to what Tigers should be like in the wild. And because people are so used to seeing them in zoos, and in situations like this, it becomes almost this like, Oh, he's hanging out with the Tigers. He's a powerful man. And you almost get the real natural side of these animals and the real wild side I go

Joe Pearson :

in this the scene we see where he brings them into the shopping centre. Don't you remember that one? I think they're in his early days. But it's shocking to me if I was walking through, I didn't see the traffic centre, I seen a baby tiger. I mean, the natural instinct, of course is to go over nice property that appeared and say, I've never seen one of these things, or and I've been offered a picture with it. Of course, I'm gonna take it.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah. But it's only when people kind of really take a step back and think about the ethics of it, which is very hard to do when you're faced with a cute Tiger in front of you, that you kind of realise the issues here. And I think that's, I guess, you know, first when that was first introduced, I was sympathising with Carol, because she was the one who was calling up and getting these things banned. But then, as it transpires, there's this kind of rivalry that's going on between Joe and Carol, where they're just trying to better one another. They're just trying to hurt the other one even more. Yeah, getting to a point where he's suing him for millions. It's just ridiculous.

Joe Pearson :

The point is that they both think they're bad guys. And that's probably true. That's why it fuels in her eyes. He obviously is this crazy individual who has loads of claims of killing Tigers selling them illegally. And so that which most of that is probably true. And then of course, his argument is that she is pretending to be the same on Facebook Live Streaming all the little animals, but actually strong, strong allegations that she killed her husband, which we'll get onto shortly. She probably did, if I might, if I'm honest. Plus the fact that more she has the volunteer programme, where she's pretty much abusing the fact that people want to work with tigers and paying them actually nothing to do so. making them work for years in order to actually interact with tigers and work with them.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah, I mean, I don't know what's going on in the minds of these people. I don't think many people except maybe some very highly trained psychiatrists that truly understand what's going on. But these people are so quick to point the finger at the other, I think because they want to point it away. I want to draw the attention away from the wrong that they know that they're doing themselves. And they can't admit that what they're doing is in some way selfish is in some way hurting the animals. Because they don't want to admit that they're just pointing at the other one and saying, oh, you're wrong, you're wrong. You're like you're doing this, you're doing that your damages are too small. And it's kind of pathetic.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, it truly is. Yeah. Joe exotic is the first person we meet in this show. He's probably the most crazy obviously, towards the end, prison and all the chaos issues and most of the big events we see happen with him, but we actually did a bit of research into him, just to see what the story was before the show, all named Joseph Allen Maldonado passage. He was born in Kansas. There was actually quite a shocking thing that I read that when he was five, was actually raised by an older boy. And that's a shocking thing to happen at that age. Yeah, that you're almost at the kind of age where I wouldn't even take him What happened? He probably never really understood potentially what that was.

Gordon Hall :

He was a police officer, and was actually the chief of the Department for a time. But then one of his siblings outed him to his parents as gay. And that led to him attempting suicide in 1997. So he had a pretty heartbreaking life actually, up until he met was it doc Anto?

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, and he's the man, obviously, the Tigers and then he didn't really look back from there. Now. I guess he wanted to imitate the life he had with the nice house and get all the people around him who loved him and he had all these animals. He probably told himself he was going to start this sanctuary up for exactly the right reasons. He was going to be the guy that did it right, brought all these animals over and looked at them properly. But actually what's transpired is you've got loads of money in and you start to fuel some of his erratic behaviour by the amount of guns we see in a show about Tigers is ridiculous.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah, and we talk about something For a second I mean as a vegan. I don't have a lot of experience in eating meat for a few years, Joe, but how quickly after meat is expired? Does it go off? Does it go bad

Joe Pearson :

ends on the me but pretty quickly it will smell. Yeah, I think the only thing that probably wouldn't is beef beef would probably go a bit tough. Especially Why me would would all go off or

Gordon Hall :

I don't know if you really paid attention to when he was having these meat deliveries come in from the supermarket, but from what I saw it was big, like hunks of meat. were no packaging on them. I didn't see a refrigerator in sight. And people were just grabbing at it. It looked like one of the most unhygenic things I don't know whether it's just because I'm switched on to it because of Coronavirus but it was absolutely disgusting. And it made me cemented the fact that I'm a vegan even more to be honest seeing the meat that he was feeding those animals. What What do you think about that as someone I mean

Joe Pearson :

Yeah as a me I wouldn't even touch it really expired me I mean reduce me when you see in the supermarket, sure, but in your freezer using whatever, but expired me from Walmart to not even go near human, let alone a tiger. Be honest. I mean this is actually quite a binary in a zoo that had Joe exotic with his two husbands we have at 1.1 of which ends up killing himself, which we actually see, which was incredibly horrific, and we have no pre warning that was about to happen.

Gordon Hall :

That was distressing, at least for a lot of people that wouldn't have sat very well with them at all. Really. We even see the guy at the very end when Joe is actually in prison. Another young guy that's been enticed by the Tigers and everything about he's fallen in love with Joe exotic when he's running away from the zoo when he's been completely bankrupted. It just shows you the sheer power of these animals and how they can be used to get whatever you want. Yeah, one thing that I did notice and I'm going to be honest, I believe them from SAF and from Dylan But previously worked at the zoo, but then their loyalties lay with the Tigers. More than Joe. I don't know whether this is just me being optimistic. But I like the thing. The despite the characters like Jeff Lowe, like go exotic like Carol Baskin, whose power went to their heads that not everybody involved in this industry is as corrupt as those individuals, but there are some people who potentially do love the Tigers just are not in the best situation to kind of deal with that. At the moment. Obviously, during the show where we were showing a lot of Joe exotic we're showing a lot of our basket and this the the journey that they went on, but this documentary was made over the period of about five years. Wow. And there's been numerous reports from both Jerry exotics camp and also from Kara Baskins camp, claiming the there was a lot of misrepresentation In the show. So Joe, I asked you do you think the individuals depicted in the show were represented fairly from what you've read? Do you think that maybe it's not as black and white as they posited in the show?

Joe Pearson :

I think this show definitely alludes to stuff a lot. It gives you scenes where you're forced to make a judgement and it gives you lots of long pauses and things like that. I think it does direct the viewer to have an opinion a certain way quite a lot. But you know, it's video You can't hide on video that they chose to say what they said on there, the fully aware that there's cameras around however, Netflix or whatever production company made this, regardless of that, they said a lot of the things that they said on that show, and that's where a lot of people are still poor, because quite frankly, they've all been painted in a bad light. So they're gonna say that really and he deserves he painted a bad light because what a lot of what they were doing, let alone with the Tigers. A lot of the people involved in these places was pretty awful.

Gordon Hall :

Absolutely. I mean, who would you say is the bad guy in this documentary? And who would you say is the good guy?

Joe Pearson :

I think some of the people that were there, I think they do have a genuine passion for the animals, as we've said, and they fully believe that they're doing good. I think the people that are running it, yeah, he these main edit people are not

Gordon Hall :

really, absolutely I think for me, the clear distinction is as soon as power stepped into it, then people's priorities very quickly change and people's true characters kind of revealed. I think when you look at people like Joe, Jeff Lowe, duck Antal, even Carol to an extent, they're very much using these animals and the power that it gives them for their own financial gain. Whereas if you look at people like those partners, you know, Joe's partner Dylan, clearly had a love for the animals. As you can see that in the way that he talks about them in the reunion show that was posted last week. Yeah. And the same with that. It was the the guy who'd lost his arm. His love for the animals and his genuine kind of care and concern for them was definitely there. And I think the ultimate ultimately it was that love the these individuals had for the animals that was abused by the likes of Joe exotic and stuff like that. I

Joe Pearson :

mean, Joe used it for his image, and the whole Joe exotic brand. Council used it to essentially groom younger girls to work for him and he slept with a lot of them and they will pretty much his wives. And then obviously, Carol, mainly for money by the looks of it, in the way that she set it up as a kind of charity style, but she didn't really know anyone but a lot of money in from people visiting and all the different revenue streams you had.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah, well, maybe it's time to just take a little bit Have a deep dive into Carol Baskin and who he is because we're given a bit of background on her in the show, but I just did a bit of a deep dive on to Wikipedia. The Carol got married pretty early at the age of 17, to a guy called Michael Murdoch, not Daredevil, as Matthew Murdock can go and get a daughter, and we don't really hear much about her daughter in the show. To that time, she began breeding cats, but she also started a business using llamas to trim people's lawns. I don't know whether llamas were cheaper than lawnmowers. I'm not too sure that the ethics behind kind of using llamas like that, but

Joe Pearson :

just imagining In fact, those 20 llamas eating all the grass on my lawn now. It's pretty,

Gordon Hall :

pretty funny. Strange.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah. Ya know, I mean, they like grass.

Gordon Hall :

And then when she turned that he married God And when she turned 30, she'd broken up with Michael moto and she went on to marry her second husband, who was a very rich man who'd gone, Louis.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, they had a very interesting relationship. They actually met when she was 19. And he was 42, which is a 23 year age gap.

Gordon Hall :

Okay, now,

Joe Pearson :

she's a little bit crazy in itself. I think there was he got married and stuff and a lot of rumours that he had more girlfriends and stuff on the go. But he ended up getting married and they made Big Cat Rescue, which obviously is the sanctuary we see in the show. And then a lot of things happen.

Gordon Hall :

focus for Gordon. So details are a little bit sketchy. What we do know is that Don Lewis every month would go to Costa Rica, apparently to help deal with his sex addiction.

Joe Pearson :

That's a long way to go for a sex addition to be honest, most people go down to like a clinic. Oh,

Gordon Hall :

yeah, I'm pretty sure he wasn't going there for counselling.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, maybe a bit of hot weather and whatever. Yeah,

Gordon Hall :

so apparently in early 1997, about five years after they'd started, Big Cat Rescue, john lewis began to transfer ownership of his properties in Florida to a Costa Rican company that he controlled. And then this is where it starts to get a little bit interesting. In July 1997, he filed a restraining order against ero, claiming that she had threatened to kill him, then the restraining order is rejected. They continue to live together. And apparently he tells her multiple times that he wants to divorce but she did not ever think that he was serious. And then, in the days leading up to his disappearance, Don Lewis bought a plane ticket to Costa Rica with loading equipment into a truck destined for Miami, Florida, but it never got there. And that's kind of all we know. We don't know whether he went to Costa Rica, or whether he disappeared in the meantime while he was in

Joe Pearson :

the Tigers, as I think is probably the most fun Trouble cause I mean, the biggest indicator is the way that she talks about it. The way that she talks about in the show, is to immediately start backing off backing off, then she'll make jokes about it. Which if your husband had died or disappeared, probably wouldn't do that. In all honesty. No. And if you look at the third husband she has, and there's that great picture of him either on a beach and he's got a collar around his neck. It's like a tiger himself. That is what she wanted. I don't think Don Lewis was the guy with all the money and all the power that would tell her No,

Gordon Hall :

I don't know if you've seen Joe, the sheriff for Hillsborough, the area that this is all kind of set in has actually reopened the case into Don's about St. John's murder in Don's death because of the Tiger King kind of epidemic and how popular that the show has been. So he he actually says in a article or because Carol and Dawn were so competitive, they were sceptical of everyone who came in work for them. It was almost like each individual employee had to approve their allegiance each and every day. What I'm hoping is that maybe one of these relationships has since soured. Maybe one of the employees has watched this documentary and been flooded with emotions. And maybe they or anyone else who has had any knowledge of this case will be motivated to contact us and give us the piece of evidence that we're missing to be able to solve this disappearance. And that was from Chad Lawrence to the Hillsborough County Sheriff. He's actually reopened the case into Don's death as a result of tagging, which is pretty phenomenal.

Joe Pearson :

I mean, the whole setting of the van with the door open still near the plain thing, it seems almost too good to be true. If you were going to disappear, you're going to disappear. You're not going to leave any trace. I think the biggest thing that sets doubt in people's minds in all honesty.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah. If anything, even if She didn't kill him. It's still a very suspicious situation and I'm pretty sure he's done some dodgy shit there. I don't know what but Yeah, I agree. innocent. Yeah, so this show has taken the world by storm. So much so that Kanye West and Kim Kardashian are apparently in the process of trying to get Joe exotic freed from jail while they believe he is innocent. So my question to you, Joe is Do you agree with Kim?

Joe Pearson :

I don't know. I'm still not 100% sure. I mean, the murder for hire stuff is fishy at best. Yeah, if you look at the post interview stuff with Jeff lo tease is much guilty as yo exotic in all honesty, and his dodgy friend, the hardest man I've ever seen on television. I mean, if you look at the overcharged wildlife charges, I don't know how easily they are enforceable. I'm not sure of the court system in America bar.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah, that the issue with the wildlife charges is very difficult to prove what went on. It's only people's kind of allegations and what people who work at the zoo would have said and seen they said in the post interview episode that there they made kind of claims that he had killed tigers, but whether or not that actually happened we don't know for certain but I think it's highly likely that it did based on what I've read. There's numerous articles that I've seen people saying that Joe is even more racist and even more horrendous than is kind of made out to be and then actually that you know, he's he's done some pretty horrendous stuff like breeze tiger cubs, the centre taxidermist, like selling baby tigers and baby monkeys to people. pats and spraying a tiger with a fire extinguisher just for not doing what you want. It's absolutely disgusting.

Joe Pearson :

He may be the scapegoat though maybe everyone and we see in the show is exactly like that and because of Oh, outlandish character the is he soaks it all up, perhaps.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah, I don't actually want to play devil's up. No, I mean, I do think that in in many ways yeah it is frustrating what transpired with Joe and get Joe getting put in prison because yes, absolutely he should be there but the thing that led him to go to prison is men that are a lot of other people who are absolutely as guilty as Joe people like Jeff Lowe people like doc Antal are able to get away with it and not go to prison because they took part in the takedown of exotics they were given a kind of get out of jail free card because of that, which is disgusting.

Joe Pearson :

Did you like Joe exhauster throughout the show because I actually took a bit of a warming to him until towards the end. I think the way that net Flex trade him. He was meant to be quite endearing and you're meant to sort of fall in love with his character.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah, they made him a very likeable person. I think they were trying to kind of do what the makers are making a murderer did with Steven Avery and they make him a likeable person. They show you his vulnerable side in order to get you to like him and in order to kind of trick you into almost caring for him before they reveal the more serious things that he's done. But now Absolutely, I think he's his bad person. He absolutely deserves to be in prison, but they did very well. Making us warm to him as a character

Joe Pearson :

and a character.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah, absolutely.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah. The way I remember that the shot it was that they obviously had it we interested Joe and dark and everything like that. And then we've seen Carol. We heard a lot about the husband and all the allegations of that and then we've seen Joe pretty much hating on her and it kept going back to Carol in a negative light. sway it that way. I think that was done like that. I think we were meant to feel like that. And then towards the end, chaos ensues and chosen president and He's the worst of all, but I actually don't think he was. I think they're all equally as bad as each other.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah, definitely. I think that every single one of the main kind of players in that show, go exotic doc and to Carol Baskin, Howard Baskin, and Jeff Lowe. All be locked up for what they've been doing is absolutely disgusting. And that those animals should be in the wild where they belong.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, pretty much or in a properly run zoo, which we have many in the UK. I'd like to think they have them in America. I don't really hear them. All I hear of orcas having be taken out of these horrible SeaWorld senses and shows how this was just show. awful, awful things happening to animals. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of dodgy faces. And show and obviously this really horrible sides of it, but it was fairly entertaining and it was gripping to watch.

Gordon Hall :

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think as much as we we've gone into this more serious side of things in this episode, and we've talked about some of the things that really struck us about it and shocked us about a show. It is probably it's definitely one of the most entertaining shows that I've seen all year. And I definitely wouldn't 100% recommend everyone check it out. If you've not already. It's a great wrap. I've watched it twice. And I 100% more chicken.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, it's gonna be one of those I think people will be able to go back to and rewatch it almost like a time capsule of where animal captivity in America was at at that time.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah, definitely. And hopefully as well, it's gonna be people to stand up against some of the injustices that we saw in the episode and hopefully it will go people to kind of rethink things and hopefully things won't be as bad in the future.

Joe Pearson :

You'd like to think so. But no in America, something else will happen. We'll move on to the next year, unfortunately. Which is, yeah, this is probably at the end of targeting, there's probably going to be follow up documentaries. There's gonna be a lot of investigative work that's going to be have to go on into these people.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah, absolutely. Man. I don't think this is the last that we've seen it. I've seen lots of rumours about a sequel series, maybe looking into the events of Carol Baskin in a little bit more detail. But like you said, I'm sure we have not seen the last of this. And there will be a flurry of articles and documentaries on the internet about this in the near future. I'm sure. Yeah, that

Joe Pearson :

Is our chat for about targeting. If you want to continue the conversation with it's about to hit us on the social send us a DM maybe we can talk about you next week. And your question that you have to us or maybe some points that we've raised that you wholeheartedly disagree with. And you want to start arguing this please do that.

Gordon Hall :

Absolutely. Yeah. So I thought it would be nice for us to end today's episode with a little bit of positive news so you might seen on social media or there's a bit of a trend that's going round run five donate five nominate fire. So with that, basically you run five kilometres, you then donate five pounds to the NHS and nominate five others do the same by nominated Joe, and he's still not done it. Why is that Joe?

Joe Pearson :

We're waiting, we're waiting. We're building up to five K. That's actually a lie. I will do it. I've been nominated three times. Now I should wave up and get out. I've had an excuse to whether it's actually been lovely. So the rain hasn't even kept me in. But I promised by the time this is released, I would have done it. You will see my sweaty face On Instagram or wherever I post it, I've done it

Gordon Hall :

amazing. So if you check out at the Liminal underscore pod, and Joe will be posting the evidence of his five kilometre run as soon as he's done it,

Joe Pearson :

I have no choice now. So you will see that no, absolutely. So

Gordon Hall :

Joe, what we're talking about next week, we've come up

Joe Pearson :

with a brand new concept has never been seen before. Essentially, we're going to call it would I not tell the truth to you very complicated, but I'll explain it in layman's terms. Me or Gordon, I'm going to be picked at random are going to tell a story and it's either going to be a true or it's going to be a lie. And we're gonna have to work out which one of those is and you can play along at home. It's a very complicated,

Gordon Hall :

yeah, never sound familiar that what was it called? Well, I lie to you.

Joe Pearson :

We're gonna call it would I not tell the truth to you?

Gordon Hall :

Amazing. So that is going to be a really fun week, you're gonna learn some really interesting facts about us. Probably some embarrassing stories in there as well. So until then, it's goodbye for me,

Joe Pearson :

and it's goodbye for me. We'll see you next week.

Gordon Hall :

Bye. Bye. Bye bye. You

Joe Pearson :

Just want to take a moment to thank a couple of people Haley who has made this fantastic logo. Leah, the social media Queen that has ran everything for us last week or two. And obviously Harry's made this fantastic music. Thank you everyone for rating and reviewing us on Apple podcasts number like that. If you could do that, that'd be a massive help. See you next week.