Liminal Podcast

Black Lives Matter

June 08, 2020 Gordon Hall and Joe Pearson Season 1 Episode 8
Liminal Podcast
Black Lives Matter
Chapters
Liminal Podcast
Black Lives Matter
Jun 08, 2020 Season 1 Episode 8
Gordon Hall and Joe Pearson

Gordon and Joe discuss the importance of the Black Lives Matter movement, in a passionate and heartfelt conversation. See the links below for how you could help and some further resources.

Show Notes

Check out this episode on YouTube!
Marianne Budde Facebook Post
Anti Defamation League - Can we talk?
ADL - Pyramid of Hate (Aimed at educators but incredibly helpful for everybody)
Me and White Supremacy
Miami Police Department (Good News Post)
Black Lives Matter Ways You Can Help
13th Documentary (Thought-provoking documentary, detailing the criminalisation of African Americans and the prison system)
UK protests for Black Lives Matter: 2020 dates and how to get involved (Evening Standard) 
Black Lives Matter: Petitions, resources and tips for writing to MPs 

Liminal Podcast is about dealing with change, be that through humour, self-care, science, or spirituality. Join Joe and Gordon as they laugh and ponder, as well as speak to experts and friends, trying to figure out how to deal with life when the rug has been pulled from under your feet.

We’d love to hear from you! If you want to get in touch click here.

Liminal Podcast couldn’t happen without the support of our team, as always massive thank you to Harry for writing the theme music, Haley for creating our logo and Leah for everything she does behind the scenes. Thank you to everyone who rates and reviews the show, we really appreciate it.

Subscribe to Liminal Podcast

Apple Podcasts
YouTube
Spotify
Stitcher

Follow us on social media

Facebook
Instagram
Twitter
TikTok

Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/theliminalpod)

Show Notes Transcript

Gordon and Joe discuss the importance of the Black Lives Matter movement, in a passionate and heartfelt conversation. See the links below for how you could help and some further resources.

Show Notes

Check out this episode on YouTube!
Marianne Budde Facebook Post
Anti Defamation League - Can we talk?
ADL - Pyramid of Hate (Aimed at educators but incredibly helpful for everybody)
Me and White Supremacy
Miami Police Department (Good News Post)
Black Lives Matter Ways You Can Help
13th Documentary (Thought-provoking documentary, detailing the criminalisation of African Americans and the prison system)
UK protests for Black Lives Matter: 2020 dates and how to get involved (Evening Standard) 
Black Lives Matter: Petitions, resources and tips for writing to MPs 

Liminal Podcast is about dealing with change, be that through humour, self-care, science, or spirituality. Join Joe and Gordon as they laugh and ponder, as well as speak to experts and friends, trying to figure out how to deal with life when the rug has been pulled from under your feet.

We’d love to hear from you! If you want to get in touch click here.

Liminal Podcast couldn’t happen without the support of our team, as always massive thank you to Harry for writing the theme music, Haley for creating our logo and Leah for everything she does behind the scenes. Thank you to everyone who rates and reviews the show, we really appreciate it.

Subscribe to Liminal Podcast

Apple Podcasts
YouTube
Spotify
Stitcher

Follow us on social media

Facebook
Instagram
Twitter
TikTok

Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/theliminalpod)

Joe Pearson :

Welcome back to Liminal podcast. You're with Joe and Gordon. Are you here Gordon?

Gordon Hall :

I am indeed. Hello, Joe. How are you doing today?

Joe Pearson :

I'm not too bad. I'm not too bad.

Gordon Hall :

Liminal podcast, as you know is about dealing with change and what happens when life is pulled the rug from under your feet. And the topic that we're talking about today is a situation that should have changed a long time ago, and hasn't. And that is the situation and conversation regarding the Black Lives Matter movement sparked by the death of George Floyd a couple of weeks ago.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, this is a very passionate a very heartfelt conversation that we had about this because of course, this is something we hold so dearly in our day to day lives, and it's just a horrible, horrible thing to have to talk about. But, we felt we had to because we simply can't ignore it. It's just, it's too big,

Gordon Hall :

too, too important of an issue to not talk about and give it the time. I'd say that we've, you know, this conversation that we've had is certainly not the end of the conversation. It was very much us sharing our reaction to the situation, and our initial thoughts, trying to give some kind of advice on on how to move forwards in this but by no means is the conversation over. I'm sure there'll be some people that disagree with what we've said, probably on both sides of the camp, and we welcome that conversation. We don't want this to be just, you know, another episodes on the podcast but by no stretch of the imagination. This is an important issue in something that we will be returning to as we go go into in the conversation in a bit more detail.

Joe Pearson :

So here's that conversation. So Gordon, a bit like last week, we kind of had an idea of what we wanted to come in and talk about, but unfortunately, the world has thought differently, and our minds have gone elsewhere.

Gordon Hall :

Definitely. Yeah. I mean, it feels almost like a lifetime ago that we were talking about religion and and all of that kind of stuff. We we had plans for what we wanted to talk about this week as well. And our plans haven't been able to about because of what's been going on in the news, I'm sure we don't have to. You know, I'm sure it won't be a surprise to anyone listening, what's been going on in America right now. And, frankly, across the world in response to the frankly, the murder of George Floyd. And it is a murder. Yeah, absolutely. There's no, no two ways about it. Joe, do you want to maybe just briefly explain a little bit about what's happened just for anyone who's listening that may not know what's been going on?

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, I mean, obviously, it's an ongoing conversation and problem around the world, particularly in America with police brutality, normally tied with a bit of racism. But the whole thing is kicked off from a man called George Floyd, who was arrested on suspicion of, I think, a faulty cheque or a dodgy notes or something like that, regardless of what it was was very petty crime really.

Gordon Hall :

Cheque bounced back or something like that.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah. Something very minimal in terms of the law and he gets arrested. We don't really know what happened before that. But all everyone kind of knows is the video we’ve seen of a policeman a white policeman with his knee on the neck of George Floyd for about eight and a half minutes while he pleads that he can't breathe. He was actually being quite respectful for the officer, which is what's so hurtful. He was begging for his life essentially.

Gordon Hall :

This is something that it is difficult because in one sense, it's shocking. It's heartbreaking. It's absolutely abhorrent what's happened. But at the same time, I wasn't surprised. And that is the most horrible thing about this is that we've become almost desensitised to it. And that's why the Black Lives Matter movement is so important because we need to stop being so desensitised to this. We need to stop allowing racism to seep into our systems, because I think this is really, I think more than any other time that this conversation’s come up. This feels like It's a time when people are actually saying “enough is enough”. We need to fundamentally change the way that we've structured our society this cannot go on. it's utterly ridiculous.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, I agree. And the reason I think people feel so desperate to do something now is we've just come out of it or not even out of it. We're still in the midst of one of the worst thing that's happened to everyone as a whole. Yeah, some of these older problems that were still happening in society of comeback and the comeback. That's probably the most brutal murder I've ever seen. Of all of these ones. I've heard of ones that have been worse. I've never seen one my very eyes and so clear as daylight of what happened there. there's no was this man fighting back? You know what led up to this. All we see is one man, a white man pinning a black man down and killing him and taking his life over the course of eight minutes while there's three other officers who do nothing. They stand and watch.

Gordon Hall :

It's It's just that there's no words. I don't know whether this podcast is going to end up being a really short episode just because i've i've no idea what to say. I've no idea how to respond. It's hard to even comprehend the the, what it must feel like to be a victim of that and to go through that and to have that as part of your story and is something that I'm never going to understand. And Joe, you're never going to understand we are, by the very nature of the pigment of our skin privileged in so many ways That we are almost completely blind to most of the time. And that's a stark thing to realise. It's a difficult thing to process and you kind of just want to bury your head in the sand. But that's not helping anyone. No, that's not what we should be doing in this. We need to be proactive. We need to take action, but it's almost hard to know what to do.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, I think something is always better than nothing. And...

Gordon Hall :

For sure

Joe Pearson :

it's not good enough just to say that it's wrong.

Gordon Hall :

No

Joe Pearson :

Well, how do we change it? How do we change it? Of course, the system is always to blame. But we're still a bit of a part of it. Although we don't have immediate control, we do influence the people around us, we do interact with people, and I'm sure you've experienced racist people in your life, Gordon, and you've had a chat with someone, Yeah one hundred percent you think this seemed like a very normal person and suddenly, these crazy outlandish views come out of their mouth and you almost look at them and look in their eyes and go where on earth did that come from? Because what what you and I and I'm sure a lot people feel with these kind of things is it's a confusion. Why do they think that way? Where does it come from? You know, is it a parent that influences their thinking when they were younger? Is it a political leader that leans that way? You know, because at the end of the day, it's just a roll of the dice you know, what colour skin you're gonna have, it's just by pure luck and pure chance that you're born and the colour skin that you are and the area that you were brought up in the upbringing that you get, it's all chance and me and you, have an equal chance of being those people that are protesting and being shot out with rubber bullets and losing eyes and and all of the worst things which has been the reaction to this, or we could be sat here, just also confusion. still asking in white privilege because We're not going to be affected in the same way. This is awful.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah. And it’s, I'm almost I'm so hesitant to speak out on this not because I don't want to or because I don't think is important, quite the opposite because this is so important. And I want to make sure that Firstly, what I'm saying is, is right, there's so much here that I think anytime this this kind of thing blows up, it reveals to me how little I know and how much work I need to do personally in regards to my own privilege and an understanding that I know that I've, you know, I'm doing a lot more than other people that I know. But there's still so much more that I should be doing but it's, it's something in the one thing that I would say in all of this as white people and to all white People who are listening right now is please please, please do not make this about us Do not make this a guess as as white people we need to be of doing more and more than anything is listening. These problems have been caused for the most part by white people controlling the narrative white people doing abhorrent things to people of colour. And while the narrative is being driven by white people, that is not going to change, we need to use this opportunity to listen and to share the voices of people of colour. So one thing that we are actively looking to do at some point in the near future with Liminal podcast, is do an episode where me and Joe actually don't really speak that much and we give people of colour in Britain, particularly the opportunity to talk about about their experiences and what's going on. I don't know if you want to say anything about that.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, and it's a UK problem as well, which is why we'll touch on that. Because it's been a massive problem on and off in this country. I say on and off in the fact that the spotlight gets shone on it, then it goes off there. But obviously, it's an ongoing issue. In London with with gangs and stuff and searching, we've seen horrible incidents in this country as well. But in America, they're in a very politically difficult point. You've got the leader of the country, as someone who's so divisive. It leads to more events like this. I'm not saying it's a direct result of it, but it certainly doesn't help.

Gordon Hall :

I'd argue it, when President Trump came into power it paved the way for things like this to happen. Allowing somebody like that, who is as devisive as President Trump, I don't think it's wrong to say that there is a correlation between him being put in power and the rise of racist behaviour in the States. And especially when you consider the fact that we had President Obama beforehand. You know, President Trump has used his position and used racism as a way to get people to vote for him. It's, it was obvious in his campaign, and...

Joe Pearson :

Well he's got some very outlandish views on people immigrating to America and how that's caused problems. And people view that as, well clearly people of colour are a problem. And then he built up his campaign upon that, and suddenly, those are his complete views and it was embedded in the way that he structured his campaign. And like we mentioned in the last episode, he's trying to use religion again. Can we just talk about his speech because obviously the speeches is whatever he's just saying whatever he can to try and calm things down. But in order to do that speech, he teargassed and moved a peaceful protest out of the way. And I think the response to everything that's going on is almost worse. It's It's worse than the actual incident that happened because the fighting it in the worst possible way.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah, I saw something on Facebook that I'm just gonna find. It's shared by a friend of mine. It's something that was written by the Reverend Mariann Budde, who is the Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Washington. And she said, “Let me be clear, the president just used a Bible, the most sacred text of the Judeo-Christian tradition and one of the churches of my dioceses without permission as a backdrop... for a message antithetical to the teachings of Jesus and everything our churches stand for. And to do this, so he sanctioned the use of tear gas by police officers in riot gear to clear the churchyard. I'm truly outraged.” This man didn't just use tear gas to drive a crowd away to make a speech. He did that in front of a church holding a Bible making a statement. That was him holding a Bible standing outside a church holding it up saying a speech is making a statement that what he is saying is in some way endorsed by God. That is a that is a move that A) is fundamentally against the US Constitution because church and state are meant to be separate and he's using this divisive situation to cause even more division by using religion. Secondly (B), what he is doing in that is completely antithetical to the very teachings that the book he is holding profess. And as somebody who used to be a Christian, no form of Christianity that I ever would have subscribed to, would be okay with what Donald Trump just did. And any Christian that says they're okay with that is not a Christian in my opinion. And in Jesus opinion, either.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, I would agree with that completely. Obviously, you know, my opinion on religion, but you should never use it in that way.

Gordon Hall :

No

Joe Pearson :

Never ever, ever because I think the problem with Trump is that he makes people pick a side. Are you with me, or are you against me? And it's almost like a it's a war he’s constantly at war. And it's a very old school way of thinking.

Gordon Hall :

The fact that When the protests were happening in Charlottesville, with the white supremacists, marches, and stuff like that, Donald Trump was saying, “Oh, yeah, these are good people, we should respect them, let them say that they're saying and don't arrest them all of this kind of stuff. And then, you know, the Black Lives Matter protests start and yes, there's looting. Yes, there's stuff that is going on that is disorder. But actually, A) it's making a point, but B) Trump's reaction is is completely the polar opposite to what he had with the white supremacist. And it is very clear that he's choosing sides in that very clear that there is some kind of mismatch in terms of the way that in terms of the the fundamental way that he sees humanity. He doesn't see people of colour as equal with white people. And that is absolutely and disgraceful. And it makes me so fucking angry.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, yeah. I think that's what a lot of people are feeling is anger, is frustration. It's almost as if nothing can change if you feel powerless. I think some of us may be thought that slowly we were making some steps forward, and then we just go straight back to where we were, and we lose another 10 years.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah, I think that but I think what I would say on that is I don't think that what has happened is undoing any of the progress that has been made. It's just showing us how much progress there still is to be made. I think

Joe Pearson :

that's true.

Gordon Hall :

We we have come on in many ways, really far, in terms of the the situation and public awareness the fact that this has caused such an outcry, the fact that, you know, the internet stopped last Tuesday. And people were just posting those images of just the black background, or messages of support and solidarity, shows that progress has been made, and we shouldn't lose sight of that. But equally, we should realise, and I think this has definitely shown us, how much more progress needs to be made. And I think, for a lot of us, we, we're coming to terms with that, and we're realising the extent of how much more work needs to be done. But just because we're now aware of it doesn't mean that, you know, I think that the only thing that has really changed is the awareness of this. I think that this has been going on for so long and it's still going on. It's just been more people are aware of it, and that I can only hope can be a good thing because hopefully it will direct, it'll drive people to to actually stand up against it, which we've seen starting to happen already.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, exactly. Um, there's been marches we've seen in Manchester near to us, I know there’s one planned for Leicester that's coming this weekend. People really care about this, because particularly in America and UK, these are the most culturally diverse places in the world. I mean, I grew up in Leicester, in Leicester, it's one of the only places in UK that white people are minority. There are more people of colour and more people have different backgrounds than white British people than anything else here. And I've grown up with it and it's not made one ounce of difference to my life, and I would only say it's actually enriched it. I've been surrounded by some of the best food that was had to offer. I've met people that I probably would have never met at I lived anywhere else. And if that doesn't show you that together, we are way, way stronger than this divisive nature that is so outdated. Yeah, there's no place for it anymore. You know, we understand that people are, their skin is that colour due to the fact that they lived in this country or they have this kind of heritage, and it's simply how the skin has reacted to the sun

Gordon Hall :

It’s got nothing to do with your character. It's got nothing to do with how nice a person you are, it's got nothing to do with how much love you can give to the world and how much of a difference you can make to the world. It's got nothing to do with how bad a person you can be as well. You know, I've seen loads of people talking about how you know, like, why are we going on about what's going on in America when there's Muslim grooming gangs in the UK and I know for a fact that those people two weeks ago weren't talking at all about the Muslim grooming gangs in the UK, and they're definitely not talking about the grooming gangs that are going into fucking BBC and stuff like that. It's fucking racism being played out left right centre every single day, and we need to wake our eyes up to it. Sorry that I got a little bit preachy,

Joe Pearson :

But it's just it's from the heart because it's something that so many of us hold so dearly. Hmm. It doesn't make sense in our brains. And it shouldn't. It shouldn't, we can't fathom how people feel this way.

Gordon Hall :

No, and it's something that is so easy as well. And I know this from personal experience, it's so easy to turn a blind eye to it and to think, oh, it doesn't affect me, so I'm not going to worry about it. I've been guilty of that. In the past. I've been guilty of that in the last couple of weeks seeing some other posts and thinking Oh, another one, but it's because you know, until you actually take a minute and stop and actually comprehend this, it's it's so hard to fathom it sometimes if you've not experienced it, but that's why it's so important to experience it because ignorance cannot be an excuse anymore. things need to change Is 20 fucking 20!

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, we were having probably the worst year in human history. It's just that's not even an overstatement. It's very clear but it doesn't have to end that way we can use this is as a tool. We can say, right. Okay, medically, we need to look after ourselves a little bit more, we need to be prepared for the worst possible outcomes. And we need to look after people that are vulnerable, perhaps. And actually, we need to actually unite ourselves a little bit more. This whole world we're just a massive family. We're all one race. We're all the same animal. That's how it works. Yeah, you know, there is a lot of us. Yes.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah. At the end of the day, if you go back far enough, we all share a common ancestor.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah

Gordon Hall :

We are all connected, whether we like it or not. And we try and build up these walls and we try and create these divisions, partly because of, it's just, it's helpful for our brains to say, Okay, well, you know, that's this kind of person. That's this kind of person when we were kind of evolving, we were tribal. And so that played a part in it. But now we were so much more connected with so much more, in many ways advanced than we were. We, we don't need to be limiting ourselves to these groups. And actually, it's, it's doing more to, to limit him growth than it is to encourage it. In many ways. Imagine if we could all work together? Imagine if we did live in a world where people weren't discriminated because of their skin colour, their ethnicity, their race, their religion, their sexuality? But people were treated based on their character? I think we'd have a much better world that we'd be living in. But we can only get there if we all play our part.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, everyone has to do a little bit and be way more in tune with their surroundings and the people they're interacting with. Yeah. Because at the end of the day, you're going to interact with these kind of people because they are around. We've all had experiences with these kind of people. And some family members, I know for a fact that some people have these people in their family, and they've ignored it for years and gone. Yeah, he just has some silly views. And they just play off when actually yeah, be damaging, actually damaging and they also probably find similar people and they have friends and they all validate themselves.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah. It's, there's a really great resource actually on the anti defamation league website, the ADL website, which I'll put a link to in the show notes. It's called, can we talk and it's tips for respectful conversations in schools, workplaces and communities. And it's got got seven tips in there for just ways that we can have better conversations in work in school or university, but also with our friends and family. The first one is that decide on some ground rules to make sure that before you have the conversation, that you kind of know what your rules that you're going to stick to are. So they could be something like, make sure you listen actively when you're talking to them. If you are having a conversation about issues, stick to those issues and don't attack the people. Attack the belief. You know, if someone is racist, don't say you're an awful person. Say, yeah, your beliefs are awful. Try and still see the humanity in that person because you're never going to be able to have a conversation that changes someone's mind. If you're not prepared to have that conversation on a level with them. If you're just talking at them or talking down to them, you're never going to change their mind, you're just going to reinforce what they think. And that's partly what has limited. A lot of our societal progress is the inability for us to have conversations about this. And a lot of that for is on the part of people against ideas like this, but we need to lead by example in that. And if you meet them head on with anger and frustration, because I think that's awesome. Yeah, you're some of it for those people, that they come through something that motivates them to believe that way. Yes, you have to try and get to the root of that attacking that person and personalities only going to send them further that way, and it's going to make them even further away from where we want them to be. Yeah. And I think having conversations that are not not being afraid to actively listen and to ask for clarification, when you're talking to somebody to try and understand why they are saying what they say because Chances are, they're probably not saying it from a place of pure hatred. There's probably like Joe said, some kind of misinformation that's going on that maybe they don't quite understand the full picture. Maybe you don't quite understand the full picture. There's always more that we could learn by listening and really listening to understand what somebody is saying, rather than just listening to respond. As well as that. It's important for us to communicate to be understood. Again, not trying to vent at somebody or to just sound really clever or grandiose. We'll have a conversation that feels really good. But trying to be honest and open and not trying to overload someone with information but really responding to what conversation is going on in the moment and communicating the message. In a way that builds empathy and understanding with the person rather than, you know, name calling, belittling, stereotyping, that kind of thing. Yeah. And advise people to take note of the celebrities and some of the brands and the corporations that are actually standing up right now. Because if you can take note of those and actually say, well, actually a time and they could have done nothing, they've done something. Maybe they hold the same values you hold, and the next time that you use this product or a service, you might actually go to them instead of that one you always go to and it might be a bit more expensive. But a bit like the environment. Sometimes there's a bigger picture that you have. Yes. And and it matters more than how much money is in your pocket sometimes the show and I'd say actually, I'd I'd almost say the flip side of that. I'd actively encourage you to avoid companies that you've seen that have not been as not been using their people. That forms in the way that could have been the most avoiding companies that are not using this as an opportunity to speak about these issues. Because if you've got one company that is really using this as an opportunity to not talk about themselves, but to actually, you know, shine a spotlight on these issues that needs to be talked about. And, you know, I think we need to make sure that companies are being called out if they're not doing that. And yeah, because companies are businesses,

Joe Pearson :

and they always care about the bottom line. And at the end of the day, if they align, I wouldn't even say politically, because I think this is a human rights thing at this point. Yeah. They know when they put out a message at a time like this, they're going to lose some people because there's going to be some people who are on that horrible, horrible side who are going to reply

Gordon Hall :

to their tweets or their Instagram posts, Ivan followed or can't believe you're supporting them. This hashtag Yeah, all lives matter, which is in. Yes. So right now, there's so many problems with that. Let's not even go into that right now. Yeah. Yeah, I can't even. It's one of those. It's not even worth the energy. Yeah, it's

Joe Pearson :

not even worth

Gordon Hall :

the energy with people like that. Yeah. If you're using an all lives matter hashtag on social media and your friend of mine, just unfriend yourself, please save me the bother of finding you because I don't want you in my life. Perhaps you could set up some kind of bot, maybe where someone tweets something like that. It will just automatically unfollow them and block them and report them to the local authorities. Maybe I don't know. Maybe that's a bit harsh. But step it up. I really watch what it's doing, actually. Yeah. You know, yes, there's people's tweets. Yeah. Hundred percent. Absolutely. He's inciting violence. I looked at the violation. And I thought, yeah, let's see what is tweeted. Yeah, when the looting starts, the shooting starts. Think about that as a phrase. Yes, people shouldn't lose. However, people don't know what to do. You've not responded in the right way. You know, it would have all of this happened if they just gone Okay, we're going to charge them a first degree murder because he's a police officer on duty. And he's completely gone against all of his training and everything he should have done in that situation. And clearly, this man has problems. And he's inherently racist. And we're going to charge this man with first degree murder and he's going to be charged. Yeah, they didn't do that. They defended him. Give him a suspension or whatever. Bearing in mind, this is a man that had 1213 convictions for abusing people that he's arrested before and never been convicted of it. It's it's just shocking. And I think the the One thing that I think something that cannot be stressed enough during this is that it's important that we pay attention to our feelings in this situation as well. And I don't want any of the advice that we've been given about how to have these conversations to not have this kind of caveat in that. If you're having a conversation with somebody, if you're speaking to somebody and you find it starts to trigger you find it starts to upset you or anger you or make you feel like you don't want to be in that situation. You don't want to be talking to that person. It's absolutely okay to disengage that take a breath to say I don't want to be having this conversation with you right now. And we end it that that's absolutely fine. If that's somebody that is a particularly close person to you, if that's someone in your family, it might be a case of just saying what Let's agree to disagree and let's not you know, let let's not trigger each other anymore. But at the same time, we need to make sure that we're not using that as a cop out as a way to get away with not saying anything. That's I'm only saying that in a in a situation where you feel that emotionally you cannot cope with that situation.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, you have to try and answer as, as, as a white man there are there are things I can do day to day and I don't always know what that's going to be or what that's going to evolve. But there will certainly be opportunities where I can either shut up and do nothing, or I could actually do something. Yeah, please scenario like on a bus say if you're sat on a bus and a man says something like a white man says something to a black man.

Gordon Hall :

What are you going to do? Are you going to be the guy that says something?

Joe Pearson :

Or are you gonna be the person that calls the police? Are you going to go and sit with that person? You know, these are the kinds of things such small things that you could maybe do one day in your life and you might never be Yeah, called upon to do that. And hopefully we won't because hopefully you won't have to, but there is a chance that something like that could happen. Yeah. it be that a tweet you see, you see someone reply to a tweet from a celebrity and it's something incredibly racist. Yeah, forget, you can report that tweet, and then no one else can have to see that. Because actually, it doesn't really affect you that much. Yes, you might be offended, but it's not aimed at you. There's there's little things that we can actually do. And we can monitor people's behaviour in more ways than we think we can.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah. And it's, it's so easy to turn a blind eye rather than take that step and report that tweet, or to have the courage to have that conversation with somebody and say, actually, what you said that wasn't okay. And this is why and I think having the confidence to do that, providing that you're able to do that in a way that is coming from a place of trying to understand them trying to see why it is that they've come to that point of view. And then you can move forwards. But at the same time, I don't want any of this to come across as that people's reactions of anger or upset or not right or not okay, that's that's not what I'm saying at all. It's just that we need to be mindful and caring for ourselves. And sometimes that means disengaging from the argument to look after ourselves so that we can come back to it and present things a bit more clearly. And as long as you come back and you don't just go I'm just going to shut that away because yeah, I'm way out my depth here. I'm way up

Joe Pearson :

in education is definitely going to be the way I'm sure a lot of people will be educating themselves right now. And I know in school, I don't have to save you golden. I wasn't really educated that much on culture. We did a tiny bit on religion. But did we talk about the safety of those pregnant for hundreds of years, didn't even touch upon it. I had no idea. You know, we talked about the world wars. And of course, there was a human rights part to that, but didn't really get to race that much talks about the British Empire.

Gordon Hall :

And how great that was all the nice places. Yeah. Spoiler alert, not that great when you actually do the research. And, you know, the, we're still living in the repercussions of that. It's educating yourself about what's going on about slavery, about the law, about colonisation about the slave trade about the fact that when they abolished the slave trade, the government paid out to the slave owners money to compensate them for losing their product, essentially, is what they described as. And they're still paying out this money to families to this day for reparations for the ownership of slaves, the ownership of people is absolutely abhorrent. And while that kind of stuff is still carrying on being swept under the rug, then systemic racism is going to continue in this country. And we need to shine a light on that we need to stop to it. Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's horrible, because all of this has been said before, nothing we've said is new. And in this has been the same conversation for the last 50 to 100 years, I would imagine. And when we go through generations, whether it's getting better, it's

Joe Pearson :

really hard to fathom, to be honest, particularly

Gordon Hall :

when an incident like this happens, but we have to try. We have to try. Yeah. I'd say as we bring in this conversation to a, to a close on this part of the podcast, I want to say that this conversation is absolutely not closed for us on Liminal podcast. And we will be continuing this in the future. I want to just say right now, if anybody has any feedback on what me and Joe said, if anybody, if, if for whatever reason what we said, You've got any problem with what we've said, if you want to correct or critique or anything like that, and continue that conversation, we're absolutely open to that. I completely recognise that as two white guys chatting about this, we don't understand the full picture. And so we welcome new people of colour to get in contact, share your experiences with us and we'd love to share them with the wider audience at some point if we can maybe even get you on the show. And this is something that we don't want. Just To be two white guys having a conversation, we want this conversation to spark further conversations for both yourselves but also for the wider community as well. Yeah, 100%. So if anyone feels comfortable coming on, or even just sending us an audio snippet, or whatever you feel comfortable with us, we don't want to pressure people into it. But it's a massive issue. And if you feel comfortable talking about it, for sure, it's your time. This has nothing to do it as in many ways, but by all means, we can help. Yeah, yeah, if you if you're interested in that, just reach out to us at Hello at the Liminal pod calm, and we'll get in touch with you regarding that. So yeah, that was our conversation and like I said that that is not the end of the conversation by any stretch. Please do get in touch. If you've got anything that you want to add anything that you want to contribute to this conversation? As we continue it, I will be opening up the comments board on the episode as well for people to share their thoughts.

Joe Pearson :

We're going to link a couple of articles. And if you think that's

Gordon Hall :

a good point people in the right direction and yeah, maybe some advice that we've seen online. So do have a look in the show notes. Yeah, we want to make the show notes, real hub for information that you can find ways that you can practically get involved and really confront these issues in your day to day life. One way to do that is the book me and white supremacy. It's a collection of 28 readings and exercises that you can do to try and recognise your own privilege and combat racism in your own world and the wider world. I'm going to be starting it from today. From the day this episode comes out and I'd love to invite you to join me on that as well. So as we always do, we do like to touch on a bit of good news. It's not been a great good news week for the world. However, you sent me a post via Facebook. I think Gordon, obviously related to the issues we've had all this week in America. Yeah, so this post was shared by a friend of mine. It's a post of some. It's so I'll just read it out. It's Miami police surpassed every place of the world. When protesters came to attack them due to the George Floyd murder a black American man who was killed by the Minnesota police. They all went on their knees and asked for forgiveness while crying. The riots has joined them something which melted so many hearts, and there's a picture of the police officers are kneeling. And then next, the police officers kneeling. You can see the protesters coming in and joining them, laying hands on them and it looks like a really beautiful moment. And I think it's moments like that, that remind me That there is still good in humanity. And there are still people out there that are willing to make a difference. And to kind of stand against these things. Gives you a little bit of hope. Absolutely. Yeah. Which can feel so hard to come by in these times? Yeah, hundred percent. It's been a very depressing year so far. I will. I will say that. Not only that, but so, yeah, who knows where we go from here? Really? I really hope things go get better. Yeah, I think this year, hopefully we'll get a lot better as time goes on. Certainly in the Liminal podcast world, things will be getting a lot more exciting as the week goes on. Me and Joe have been having some really exciting talks with some potential guests. So there's more to look out for on that front in the future. So stay tuned for that. But until then, we'll be back next week with another episode of lunar podcasts, please keep rating and reviewing and subscribe if you haven't already, and connect with us on social media at the Liminal underscore pod. Other than that, it's goodbye for me. Bye for me. And a massive thank you again to Harry for the incredible music that you can hear going on right now. Thank you to Haley once again for the incredible logo. And Leah for doing everything that she does behind the scenes making this show happen. It couldn't be done without you. But biggest thank you goes out to you the listeners. Thank you so much for tuning in every single week to me and Joe chatting shit. See you next week. Bye.