Liminal Podcast

Styling Yourself from the Outside In

June 29, 2020 William Graper, Gordon Hall and Joe Pearson Season 2 Episode 3
Liminal Podcast
Styling Yourself from the Outside In
Chapters
Liminal Podcast
Styling Yourself from the Outside In
Jun 29, 2020 Season 2 Episode 3
William Graper, Gordon Hall and Joe Pearson

We often hear that a beautiful life starts from within... but that’s only half true. As human beings, we are subject to the material world which inevitably shapes who we are — and how we feel about ourselves. By looking outside and working our way in, we can effect change in a more tangible, practical way.

Blending fashion and psychology, William Graper brings a unique perspective to personal growth and mental health. Everyday people, celebrities, CEOs, pro athletes and LGBTQ+ youth— clients from all walks of life— have benefitted from his creative and therapeutic approach.

William joins Gordon and Joe for a candid chat about his transition from a successful career to the next chapter of his life. Having styled people’s outsides for over a decade, he looks forward to helping you style your life — in a more lasting and meaningful way.

Show Notes

William's Website
William's Instagram
William's YouTube

Related Reading

Vogue archives on William's Styling

Liminal Podcast is about dealing with change, be that through humour, self-care, science, or spirituality. Join Joe and Gordon as they laugh and ponder, as well as speak to experts and friends, trying to figure out how to deal with life when the rug has been pulled from under your feet.

We’d love to hear from you! If you want to get in touch click here.

Liminal Podcast couldn’t happen without the support of our team, as always massive thank you to Harry for writing the theme music, Haley for creating our logo and Leah for everything she does behind the scenes. Thank you to everyone who rates and reviews the show, we really appreciate it.

Subscribe to Liminal Podcast

Apple Podcasts
YouTube
Spotify
Stitcher

Follow us on social media

Facebook
Instagram
Twitter
TikTok

Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/theliminalpod)

Show Notes Transcript

We often hear that a beautiful life starts from within... but that’s only half true. As human beings, we are subject to the material world which inevitably shapes who we are — and how we feel about ourselves. By looking outside and working our way in, we can effect change in a more tangible, practical way.

Blending fashion and psychology, William Graper brings a unique perspective to personal growth and mental health. Everyday people, celebrities, CEOs, pro athletes and LGBTQ+ youth— clients from all walks of life— have benefitted from his creative and therapeutic approach.

William joins Gordon and Joe for a candid chat about his transition from a successful career to the next chapter of his life. Having styled people’s outsides for over a decade, he looks forward to helping you style your life — in a more lasting and meaningful way.

Show Notes

William's Website
William's Instagram
William's YouTube

Related Reading

Vogue archives on William's Styling

Liminal Podcast is about dealing with change, be that through humour, self-care, science, or spirituality. Join Joe and Gordon as they laugh and ponder, as well as speak to experts and friends, trying to figure out how to deal with life when the rug has been pulled from under your feet.

We’d love to hear from you! If you want to get in touch click here.

Liminal Podcast couldn’t happen without the support of our team, as always massive thank you to Harry for writing the theme music, Haley for creating our logo and Leah for everything she does behind the scenes. Thank you to everyone who rates and reviews the show, we really appreciate it.

Subscribe to Liminal Podcast

Apple Podcasts
YouTube
Spotify
Stitcher

Follow us on social media

Facebook
Instagram
Twitter
TikTok

Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/theliminalpod)

Joe Pearson :

Welcome back to Liminal podcasts with Joe and Gordon for another fresh episode. How are you? Good.

Gordon Hall :

I'm doing really good. Thank you, mate. How you doing?

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, I'm good. I'm good. It's been a great week actually had some really good feedback on just the sober painter, which was Cate Blanchett last week?

Gordon Hall :

Yes, absolutely. Kate's episode has gone down an absolute storm. We've had loads of messages of people responding to it. And there's been a little bit of confusion in amongst that. When people confusing Kate Blanchard, the silver painter with Cate Blanchett, the very very famous actress, and I just wanted to clear up that confusion. They are not the same person. I'm pretty sure they're quite different in a lot of different ways. But there's been a bit of confusion in there.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, it wasn't the blockbuster so maybe she'll come on one day, but not just yet, not just yet, I don't think, which leads us on nicely actually to who we have this week because this is someone who has actually been in contact with some of the greatest actors and people in the music industry in the business, and that is through styling.

Gordon Hall :

Yes indeed. This week, our guest knows a thing or two about change. They built a big career as a fashion stylist working with some of the best of the best, with names like Vogue, Harper's Bazaar, john legend, Katy Perry, and Billy Eilish, but they recently went back to school to get their master's in psychology and we chatted to them about that identity shift about how having styled people's outsides for over a decade they are now passionate about helping people to style their life from the inside out. It's a pleasure to introduce you to none other than William

Joe Pearson :

You know thing by the way

William Graper :

I'm looking for that partner in crime. I'll tell you why.

Joe Pearson :

It took a while.

William Graper :

It's amazing how many things you need to get a podcast going like it seems like I should just be able to like plug in a mic.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah. So much. It's crazy.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah. I think a lot people glossed over Gordon because he's an interesting looking man.

William Graper :

garden. My hair used to be down to here. And oh, yeah. And I was, you know, 120 pounds until I was like, 30 I'm 35 so I guess till I was 33 years old, and I you know, it was it's the best because you have a long I'm not a part of the Long Hair Club anymore. Like there's that nod you give guys with long hair on the street that are like, you get it you get it? And yeah, it's interesting to be on the other side of that having cut all my hair off and I went to the gym and

Joe Pearson :

it's been a process their journey. This is the longest my has ever been the way the rest of the world here. COVID Yeah, pretty much. My girlfriend did a little side job because it was looking a bit weird, but this is all natural.

William Graper :

Yeah. Yeah, mine's a mess under here too. I just I just did the Adam at home gym stuff. So that's why I'm coming in hot.

Gordon Hall :

Rice. Yeah, but what's it like in you're in LA, right?

Unknown Speaker :

I'm in LA. It was cool this summer. I mean, this weekend we had 30,000 people show up for the march it was in sane. Wow. It's just awesome to see. I mean, you know, my partner and I had been very careful about the pandemic and probably lean more towards anxious about it all. So, obviously, the March is something I want to see. And I took part in in a way that felt safe to me, but it was also kind of scary to see so many people together, having not had a soul around me for three and a half months. Like it's just such a shock to your system to be like nothing's changed. changed in terms of the pandemic. But now everyone's having lunch outside. And I don't know, it's just wild to watch. It's kind of it's kind of

Joe Pearson :

it's conflicting, because you want to be like, we shouldn't be marching. But on the other hand, you're like, we'll be marching, we did exactly what we need to do is wrong. We've had a hit, which is, you know, I never thought we'd actually come over here. But we've had in Manchester new Gordon, I was in Leicester, and I really debate going, but my dad was looking at my grand, and I was like, it's can't justify doing it, and then it will come back to me. But it's all style times very odd.

Unknown Speaker :

Yeah, I participated from the side and, you know, like, cheered people on and wore a mask and just did it in a way that felt comfortable to me. And I think that's what everybody has to do is like you have to take apart in some way, shape or form. We have a moral and cultural obligation to make right what needs to be made. Right and So if that's on social media for you, that's a way of doing it. If that's out in person, that's a way of doing it. And,

William Graper :

you know, it has to be that way.

Joe Pearson :

We did a podcast and we just said the main thing, just do something. Don't do nothing, especially as a white guy, just do something, whatever that is, little small, whatever that means to you. It's about a mental thing more than physical thing most of the time. Are you in the right mental place? You know, have you have you actually got the right views? And can you influence other people in a good way as well?

Gordon Hall :

Or are you willing to at least change your views? If you are, you know, if you're getting defensive when people say black lives matter? Are you questioning that? And are you thinking okay, why? Why am I feeling like that rather than just, you know, going down to it. We've seen horrendous protests happening in London over the last weekend, which is it's shocking seeing people who are protesting, people protesting it's

Joe Pearson :

Strange and they're

Gordon Hall :

they're not observing any of the social distance or any of the social distancing or anything like that. It's they always come out those

Joe Pearson :

are after on the far right in England, they're just football fans and they're not football fans. They just fall right? I didn't know what you call them without being too derogatory. Right. So how do we put yourself Gordon? Yeah.

Gordon Hall :

But William Han. Yeah. William, wasn't he? Maybe introduce yourself? Yeah. Just tell them a little bit about yourself and maybe how to find you on social media and stuff like that?

Unknown Speaker :

Sure. Yeah. My name is William graper. And I am a celebrity fashion stylist living in Los Angeles. I've been styling for 15 years between New York and Los Angeles and recently have gone back to school and I'm getting my master's in clinical psychology and we'll be licenced to be a psychologist here in the next year, year and a half And it's just been an awesome ride of, of going from the fantasy, which is styling and celebrity and that fantastical world creation to reality and in some ways it mirrors where we are culturally as well that's this like, from delusion and fantasy to the truth of what's really going on and that's been my personal journey and I think that's sort of what we're doing here on earth is just to get closer and closer to what's real.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, are we falling out of touch with it the style world and was it kind of gonna be over sanitised? Maybe for you? or What was it that kind of caused a shift?

Unknown Speaker :

I think naturally growing up I mean I moved to New York at 18. I lived there for 13 years worked at Interview magazine and then I worked at you know W and Vogue international I just I kind of started checking off all of my to do's and also felt like I'm creative, I have something to say. But maybe this is I haven't found the right medium, even though I kept going and the world kind of continues to root for you and tells you to keep going. And like, this is such an amazing thing anybody would want this. So I kind of like fell into believing that like, anyone should want this. So I should want this. And I mean, it's it's kind of ungrateful sounding. There's privilege in what I was able to achieve. And I'm so grateful for what I have achieved. But I think I just craved something deeper and more meaningful and dressing up models and celebrities to make beautiful pictures you don't ultimately get the satisfaction of your reader or the person viewing it like feeling a certain way. So if it is changing people's lives and making people happy, I'm not experiencing that from people because I don't get to see the end result affect someone's life. The way I deal with coaching and stuff in and therapy, I get to actually like, see how I'm able to be of service to another human being and see how their life changes for the better And like that payoff feels so good for me that it's just a natural moving into the next chapter.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah. And I guess, on the face of it when I first kind of saw that you were doing celebrity styling and then you moved into psychology I thought that's a very strange shift. But the more that I looked into it, and the more that I thought about it actually, it seems like quite a natural shift in the your, you've gone from I think your tagline that was on your email was starting people from the inside out. And I think that's just such a a natural progression almost from doing the celebrity styling for so long. I guess you've got a lot of experience in that and then you can apply that to the other side of things in a probably quite a unique way.

William Graper :

Yeah, I think I was helping create the ideal life for people.

Unknown Speaker :

And what I realised is so many Of the people who would work with one on one we're like you're much more my therapist and my stylist and you're helping me with the real issue here. It's not like you can buy a really nice dress and at the end of the day like you're still in debt or your husband is still cheating on you or you still hate your job or whatever. And so it's like, I would leave kind of feeling like I wasn't really able to tap into what we I was really there for many times and that kind of got me to sort of I feel more comfortable now that I'm in school, working towards a degree having that conversation in a more in a way that feels more appropriate. But yeah, styling your life from the inside out is really about it's also kind of I go back and forth between styling your life from the inside out styling your life from the outside in, because ultimately it we are human beings having this material experience and they say a lot about who we are like you drive a Prius because you believe certain things. You drive a Lamborghini because you believe certain things. What do those things say about what you believe? Let's talk about it and make sure that what you're trying to say to the world is really what you believe because if they're not If you end up in neuroses and discomfort, yeah, we live in the Instagram and validation kind of world where brands are everything to some people. And yet people are now brands you don't know what's real and what's not. And the platform gives you a sense that you're looking at your friends pages, but they're all still curated one dimensional versions of someone's life. So if you're comparing yourself to something that isn't real, you're always going to lose. And ultimately, people are falling in love with someone that doesn't exist, because you haven't given them the full picture of who you are. And it's not even really possible in an app like that.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, I was not on Instagram until about three years ago, I was really late to the by, I kind of, for some reason, I just didn't sign up like everyone else did. And I just kept looking at it, and it kind of just kind of weird neutral way. And eventually I gave in and everything negatively. I thought about it was kind of true. But it's addictive. And I think there's something internally that people feed into and they love it. They're looking over people's stuff. And then when they can add to it, they also get a little kickback. And then the lights come pouring in. It does go really deep. It's It's a weird one, to get your head round at times, can really mess up I think the most. The people that are the most sure of themselves are still victims of doubt. When it comes to that app being a key feature in your life. I mean,

Unknown Speaker :

I went from before we started taping, I was telling you, you know, I had used to have really long hair I was 120 pounds. And I had created this persona of a fashion editor that I looked the part I sounded the part I felt I was the part like It Wasn't that I was putting something on it. It was it was who I was. But as I grew into a different version of myself and evolved into someone else, it was really hard for the platform to understand what I was doing. So I actually like I lost so many followers. I got so much feedback that like who are you? I thought you were This person that now you're a different person, and it's hurtful because as you evolve, you just hope people will come along for the ride, but on a platform that sort of pigeonholes you into being one thing, they really have trouble understanding you changing. And so we get in this pattern of not changing, you know, and it affects your dating life, your friend life, how your family feels about you. I mean, everybody sees this version of you that you're putting out. And you know, I would go on a date with someone and the guy would be like, Oh, I expected you to be here in a dress. And I'm like, No, I was in a dress on my Instagram as as like a portrait of self expression of one facet of myself. That is not who I am in my real life who's like bhoot wearing Jean wearing guy and then they didn't connect for people and it was limiting the people that came into my life. Because what we all do is go to that person's page and make up an idea of who we think they are before we get them.

Joe Pearson :

You always make an advertisement of yourself and your highlights and things like that. And actually, that's not your identity, to be honest, because mainly it's photo form is not video in video. Get expressions and what's their demeanour, like how they aren't a photo is very bang, there's the angle, the angle, I chose my best angle. And I like exactly how that photo looks. Because I might say 50 of them. And that's the best one to be honest and is this horrible world?

Unknown Speaker :

Yeah, I mean it's it's does a lot to promote work and business and look, I had so many amazing opportunities come as a result of having social media that people cared about and you it's a double edged sword. It's like you now are a second class citizen if you're not on social media, and I've taken extended breaks and you literally feel so out of the loop. You're like, Oh, I mean, who am I if I don't have this social media presence, and now more than ever, like, if you go get a job and you don't have that presence, you're almost like not a candidate for the job anymore. It's kind of sick. Yeah,

Gordon Hall :

yeah. It's it's almost like you're everyone's expected to have this online presence where you're always happy. You're always okay. Or if you're not okay, then you've got some kind of beautiful, elegant thing that you've written or a picture that you've drawn that expresses that. And, you know, everyone's going at it for the likes and the validation. And it's just toxic sometimes and you just need a break from it. And one thing that I found when I started running was that I loved the break from just any kind of screen, any kind of thing coming at me. I was just able to be by myself either listening to some music or a podcast or just looking at nature and seeing the birds and the canal and the the water, the ducks and all of that kind of stuff. And it was it was refreshing to have that separation

Joe Pearson :

between yourself and not the internet, basically, constantly looking at the phone.

Unknown Speaker :

Isn't it interesting that this COVID has given everyone the opportunity to sort of relook at all of that and to I mean, I think There's so many scary things that have come as a result of COVID but then also so many blessings like I'm almost kind of having more anxiety about going back to the way things were than I because I'm so settled into it now and I'm realising that all the moments in my life where I've had the most momentum and been the most creative and happy have been in times of quiet where I felt I needed to like go to Hawaii for a month or like go on a retreat and then I'm realising that like actually I can have that here in my home right now and this is like such a gift to be shown that it's here right now. Yeah.

Joe Pearson :

So we'll we'll start wildlife because I mentioned obviously the style before you kind of making the transition now, I'm guessing hectic busy, but obviously glamorous and you know, very engaging most days. You did you enjoy the hustle and bustle of it for a long time. A long time. Yeah, my entire 20s were New York. If you

Unknown Speaker :

can endure the most masochistic situation, then you're a winner. You know, like if you can just self Sacrifice meant that you were successful. And I remember I had a few years where people would say, How are you and I was always so busy. And it was like, I realised that that's such a great way of keeping people away. Because think about it, no one's going to add to your plate. If you've already just said, You're busy, no one's going to share with you how they're really doing or give you any accountability because they're like, Oh, he's overwhelmed. Don't Don't bother him. And I realised that I used that line as a way of keeping people away whether I knew it or not. And so I stopped saying I'm busy and I started saying like, I'm good, or I'm, you know, I'm having a rough day or whatever. And without keeping people in an inappropriate way, when they asked me and sometimes it's literally an elevator thing and you're not going to start getting into now, but the hustle and bustle was addictive. I would say I was also addicted to a lot of other things to keep me in that world like Adderall and would go out and party hard and work hard and there was a sense that if you if we especially in publishing and magazine as like you'd close an issue and then you'd be like, we gotta go rage because we just got through this like awful thing and now we got to come down from it. So I mean yeah, I still style and still love creating beautiful pictures and that's the source of my main source of income at the moment but it is not in the same way and Los Angeles really allowed me to like, pick and choose and just just have a better work life balance.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, New York very like London. I really don't like London in the UK at least you've ever been there but the second I get into London and I know Gordon's from London, so he's gonna hate me for saying this. I kind of feel a bit. I feel out of touch with myself. My head starts pounding a little bit. There's so many people darting around, everyone's busy. Everyone's in a rush. People are pushing each other way. I probably can only do it for a certain amount of time. And I think then you have to kind of move away and start a new chapter is one of those kind of places I'm imagining.

Unknown Speaker :

Yeah, I mean, I love London. I used to go to Hoxton all the time and Mike stay with Roxanne square used to be like Brooklyn was when it was just like it just kind of trashy actually and like rundown and young and hipster It was awesome I mean Oh no.

Gordon Hall :

Oh friend in Hoxton

Joe Pearson :

you ah

Gordon Hall :

my first date with my first girlfriend was an oxen yeah

Unknown Speaker :

it's a There used to be a club there where it was like, like a gay wasn't totally gay but it was like theatrical over the top nightclub remember what that was? Oh yeah, well anyway

William Graper :

it's it's really I think okay I think about Dino the band I'm trying to be like relevant to the UK but I'll do this very well but you know, you know the band like

Unknown Speaker :

Fifth Harmony I think it was were like the Camila caballo is like the famous one from that band now and she has like her own. I think that was her band Anyway, she was in a girl group and she was like the breakout star or I think about like Justin Timberlake and insync he's the breakout star. The rest of those people are fucked for life, because they'll never be able to To go get a real job ever again, instinct doesn't need to, but like, Fifth Harmony wasn't really famous enough to, like, live on what that was. So all the other girls who didn't, who had who touched the sun, and now have to live back down on earth with the rest of the world, they are like, truly unable to go have like, go get a normal job because they've seen the height. And I think about like, obviously, this is a privileged conversation, but

Joe Pearson :

I just think about

Unknown Speaker :

it would be where it would just be better to never have touched it because now you have to come back down to earth and like go get a regular job and you're you're so to your you could be disappointed by what you now other people would consider a great job, but it's like you can't accept it as great because you've seen greater. And I think about it like that, like some of my experiences were so incredible, like they were dream experiences. And now I'm like as I build a private practice of therapy and counselling, I have to remind myself that this is what's right for me. I have to remind myself that this is what's good and calming and productive and lovely because I can easily want the fantasy back.

William Graper :

And then you you can't you can't be grateful from that place.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, it's more long term is what I'm getting. This may be the styling mode, you have those kind of spikes, and they're incredible. But this is going to give you that consistency that maybe you've been looking for for a little bit. Right searching for potentially. I don't know whether that's right. But obviously the future will tell you whether maybe that was true. Exactly.

Unknown Speaker :

Yeah, I just think that consistency is something as I get older is really important to me. And it was not a priority of mine forever. In fact, it was called giving up. You know, it was was like, Oh, well, to go have an easier softer life would be to give up and it's like no, actually it's called like really taking care of myself.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah. And actually sometimes it's bright. It's takes a certain amount of bravery or courage to say, well actually I'm gonna, I'm not going to be chasing after going out every time I've got an opportunity See, you're doing absolutely everything saying yes to everything, I'm going to make the choice to have a night in for myself and look after myself or, you know, do this thing that might not be the most glamorous or necessarily what people think I should be doing. But it's what I want to be doing. And it's what is right for me to do. And I think that's ultimately gonna lead to success and positivity and stuff.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, and it's probably, again, a bit of a backlash from social media. You know, you want the night owl picture and you want the picture before you go out and all that kind of stuff and the stories and everyone's sending you the DMS and things like that. And I do fear for people that are younger than us, who have grown up with this as an absolute normality, because obviously, we're all different ages, but we've all kind of come to it at a certain point in our life, and then it's become daily. There's teenagers now that are going to grow up and this is all they've known Tick tock, Twitter, Snapchat, like crazy amount of apps, so much media that they're producing from such a young age, sometimes it's probably gonna go well, but I'm sure there's gonna be some awful, awful things that are going to come over. So I think it's up to us all the wiser heads to maybe guide the narrative a bit sometimes. And check in with people.

Unknown Speaker :

Yeah, and I like to think about, like, if something's free, you're the product. So you don't like Tick tock, and Instagram and all these things are free because you are ultimately giving them more valuable information. And that ultimately allows them to create API's and all these things that are going to ultimately probably not be great for us. But it all comes back to intention. And it's, you know, I talk a lot about intention of how we dress with people, or, in this case, its intention of how you use these platforms. It's like, do I have to follow, you know, accounts with a lot of skin or could I follow museum accounts? I mean, like, it's my choice, you know, but also Ultimately, these apps are kind of addictive. So we don't always have that choice in that moment because momentum kind of gets ahold of us. And next thing we know, it's like and then the algorithm feeds us more. So it's a rough it's rough. I think you're right. The kids the kids have behind us, I worry for their ability to decipher a real from not.

Joe Pearson :

I have some younger cousins and three girls have a similar age. And it's, it's a nightmare for my uncle. Because he there's a lot of stuff he doesn't know about. And I have to be like, Look, they're going to experience this. This app is for this this app is for this and give me a little brief overview. And kind kinda Yeah, I grew a lot over lockdown. I think that

Unknown Speaker :

I mean, it's pretty crazy that you can be 18 years old now and take a shower and make $1,000 I mean, I think that's

Joe Pearson :

what you want to do. But it's it's a hard one. It's a hard it's so

Unknown Speaker :

layered. Because there's so much economic unrest, and there's so much inequality, and there's so many things that people are up against that they that's their option, or they find they do it a couple times. And it's such easy money that why would I work harder than this? And you know, it never goes away. It's all mine. So then you're kind of setting up without understanding that you're a child, and that you don't know what your 30s will be like, even though you think you do, you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot because you're not informed.

Joe Pearson :

You can't raise it. And I'll say, once you go that line, that is it, you've made the choice. Yeah, as long as you're aware of what the big learns, you've learned from styling people because you've started some pretty big names. And you've had that experience into them in some of their most candid moments and maybe, moments of doubt and stuff before they're making a massive performance and a walkout. What what are some of the big lessons you've had?

Unknown Speaker :

That ultimately, we're all very much the same. We have more like we're more likely We think we are, and that ultimately, most of us spend our entire adult lives working towards a certain level of success hoping that that will be the thing that makes us happy and fulfilled and to feel successful. And ultimately, I've seen the most glamorous and most famous people and it's like, they're all like me and you and that they all have fears they didn't do well, or they all want they all care about how they look, or they all care about doing a great job for their family or supporting their family. And so the idea that we're going to get to the to the place that we see them at and then we will feel good about ourselves and everything will fall into place is such a fantasy that I like to help people find those qualities in their life now, so often with especially 20 somethings, I'll work with them and I'll have them bring in pictures of their favourite celebrities or have films and shows and things like that because I want to know who they are because they always speak to what you think you want. So, one person might bring in Meryl Streep and other person brings in, you know, Britney Spears, whatever it is, but there's a reason why you've chosen those and I love to help people start from there. So it's like if you think this person is the epitome of confidence, or you think this person is the epitome of success, let's like let's break that down and find that for yourself from where you are now. Yeah, and then see, you break down the psychological and the mental aspect first. And then you look at the stone. Well, in the thing is that isn't even about style. For some people, it's that they're not motivated, or they they need help deciphering their goals or their purpose or their intention or they're, they're not understanding why their friends don't really like them anymore. And they feel like they're good people, but there's incongruencies. So, by using by using our cultural world around us, as a tool for assessment, we're able to see that like, Oh, you really value. People who have spent a lot of time educating themselves or You really value despite all of your references feel bohemian like you seem to really value nature and the earth? How much of that? Are you getting into your daily life? using it as a way of assessing and it's not even about the style like we're not then going out and styling them that way. We're just saying like, what is what is this speak to?

Gordon Hall :

Well, do you work? It is all of your work solely in the States. So do you work internationally as well? I'm guessing

Unknown Speaker :

styling internationally but so far, coaching is here. Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off.

Gordon Hall :

Oh, no, I was just gonna say I'm guessing game lockdown. Most stuff has been remote. So you could do pretty much anywhere

Joe Pearson :

you evolving it? Yeah. And coaching and everything.

Unknown Speaker :

Yeah, I before COVID. Most of my clients were in person. I had a few clients in different states where we would do calls or FaceTime or zoom. But I really like working with people's homes and objects. So It is something I like to do. Definitely the fate with FaceTime. So I don't love the phone as much because we're talking about visual things. But now that we're in COVID, it's been very beneficial and successful for people and they're able to, they're able to able to pull things out of their closet to show me I mean, I'll give you an example of how this works if you if you're interested. I have a client who has a bunch of dresses in her closet that are very, like short and like party, they're like going out dresses and she's a mother and she's put on some weight and she and her husband are not super happy. And she's ultimately He's like, what are the things in your closet you cling to that you can't get rid of and she's like, Well, I have these dresses and she tells me about me about them and I say like what do those dresses mean to you? What who was the person who used to wear those dresses Who was she? She was someone who felt sexy. She was someone who felt desired by her partner. She was someone who had date nights with her husband, she felt confident she's still had her job and felt self esteem from that. And what we were able to do is, is eventually she got rid of the dresses because she realised that those dresses were not about what she is now. And every time she walks past those dresses, she feels shame that she's not 10 pounds lighter. And so it's like creating an itch creating an action plan based on what those dresses say to her about herself and who she wants to be. So we find ways where she can feel sexy about herself, where she can like, make date nights with her husband and feel binding lingerie or whatever that looks like for her, you know, and create a plan to have those things now so she's not longing for something that she was, is just the most powerful thing and people are afraid to go deep. So sometimes starting at something that seems superficial like a dress is a great way in.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, you can have a chat about that one dress and all the memories that are attached to it and kind of break that down and then relate your back. It's very clever. Actually. I've never heard of anything like this happen. I'm sure it has happened to Other places in some shape or form, but it is very clever. And you will want to do my wardrobe. I am How would I describe my fashion sense? I don't really care. That's probably how I would describe it. I don't really care what I wear that much. I like to wear dark greys and just whatever Well, it's gonna kind of stay clean.

William Graper :

Are you are you typically? Do you lean more anxious?

Joe Pearson :

No, I wouldn't say so. As of now a company person. I'm not having much money as well. So I feel like I've not had the luxury side of fashion. I've never really had to hand dip into that. So I like kind of thrifting and finding something that's kind of warm and comfy rather than Can I get the latest Gucci t shirt. It's not doesn't appeal to me. You know, not all of my clothes are just plain, plain, no brands, nothing like that at all. Is that a cool thing? I mean, it's not like, is that something people do? Or is it just like purely situational?

Unknown Speaker :

I mean, that's how I dress I don't have I don't wear name brands and I wear mostly black and dark grey. And as I look at that more clearly, it's about wanting to have a uniform and and only own what is essential and I'm a bit more of a minimalist than I don't like having a bunch of things I don't like having to spend my morning wondering what to wear. I don't like having to clean my pants every time I wear them. I don't like having to dry clean anything if it has to be dry cleaned, I won't own it. You know, and I know that about myself and and also I don't want to have to wonder whether I chose the wrong thing. That's why I was asking you about being anxious like people who tend to kind of wear dark clothes and wear the same thing all the time tend to lean towards more like I don't really want to have to think about this and because I'm thinking about other things that come in the county. Yeah, yeah.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah, I'm definitely like that when I thinking about it. Now when I'm not doing so, okay, my clothes are generally very plain. I'm not really thinking about it. And then when I'm doing slightly better, I'm wearing like brightly coloured trousers and fancy jacket around. Yeah, I don't really understand. I just kind of going, Oh, that looks colourful, that looks nice. I didn't think about what things look like together not as much, but I it works for me.

Unknown Speaker :

So I think that's important, though. I think that that's, that's what I want people to know about fashion and styling is that there are no rules and there's no there shouldn't be an authority telling you what to wear. It should really be about what what suits you and your intention. You know, if you ever if you think that you're a serious person, and you are trying to present a serious and go get a job and you're wearing wacky, crazy clothing, and you're not sure why the world doesn't understand that you're a serious person. Well, there's a disconnect, you know, so helping people see that and not live from the past of like, well, this used to look good on me and now it should and it Reminds me of who I was. And this like, it's so psychological. And I don't think people realise that I think it's so easy to write off fashion as frivolous.

Joe Pearson :

They form their identity on it in a way. You know, yeah, clothes are very much a part of them. Because you got to wear them, you've got to wear something you can't go out naked. So what am I gonna look like today?

Unknown Speaker :

Yeah, also, it's where we place value on ourselves. Like, I used to only wear all black because I had like, amazing hair. And I knew I had great hair. So I was like, I'm gonna let my hair stand for me, or like some people have, like, they're really funny. And they're like, well, it doesn't matter what I wear, because I'm hilarious or whatever it is, you can if you feel self confidence in one area, you're probably going to amplify that and build into that. So the people who feel really like fashionable are going to continue working at that, while you might be working out your sense of humour or your writing or it's wherever you place your time and attention.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, as long as you're doing it, hopefully, and you're aware of what you're doing and why you do it.

Unknown Speaker :

Right, and just be mindful that, you know the you we'd never know what people are going through. And the idea that the way someone's dressed we can decide how they feel is really where we get into trouble because I had a friend we were at a coffee shop and she was like, this woman walked in who was dressed really kooky and kind of crazy and she was like, God, I just really wish I had the confidence to dress like that woman. And I was like, You have no idea that that woman is competent. That woman might be mentally ill like that woman might have gone and like she might be dressing crazy because she's colorblind, like you have literally no idea that that doesn't read confidence. But it might tell you, in which case that says to me that you really care to be more confident.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, so then So yeah,

William Graper :

that's right.

Joe Pearson :

It's never been that way. It kind of came from Did you have these experiences with with clients that you're working with and friends and stuff and you went actually, there's a massive mental connection here that people have to their style and their clothing and fashion. I'm starting to get it. Yeah, there was that.

Unknown Speaker :

two things. One is that in psychology, in my classes and studies I've learned about something called object relations, which is something that is a real psychological technique and approach, which is about how, yes, so I'm kind of taking it and making it my own because the original object relations is about how all children when they're raised have object relations. The object in the situation of children in psychology is your parents, your environment, your attachments to things. So if your attachments with your parents or your environment are skewed, and they don't attach properly, then you kind of end up being a little messed up as you age. My whole thing is like, we still have attachment to objects. Now, I'm not wanting to talk about the fact that you what your relationship was like with your parents necessarily unless that's Where we get to, but why not start with your actual objects? and say what are these speak to and the person you're trying to be. And your relationship with those objects need to be consistent, cohesive, coherent, intentional, and work from there. Because I think for a while I tried to be, you know, being a good person meant rejecting all things. I think a lot of people think like, well, I don't care about it. And I'm just going to reject it all because I'm above that. It's like, Well, the truth is, you do have to buy clothes and you do have to buy a car and you do have to live in a home and those are all choices so that you like, you like that shirt, why you like that car? Why? So there was that and then also, just as a fashion editor, I'm creating characters through clothes all the time. So I'm thinking, Okay, if this is a rich woman from the 50s, what is she wearing? And that dress would say this one thing about her and this pant was a different thing about her. So it was kind of always making those correlations as a fashion editor.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, particularly because of how much influence very popular very Famous people have over people and fans, you know, it was suddenly a silver sequined dress is worn by the biggest celebrity in the world, you're going to see a lot of them pop up in about a month's time in pretty much every fashion outlet, I would imagine. So there's a big correlation.

Unknown Speaker :

Right? And before I was doing celebrity and sort of like your way into the industry is creating fashion editorials for magazines like, you know, Vogue, and Harper's Bazaar, and elle. And these magazines have, you know, eight and 10 page spreads of story and a concept and a theme. So you might have, this is a woman in you know, Arizona on a road trip. Well, she's not gonna be wearing a ball gown, she's probably gonna be wearing something else. So it's kind of like we I was already character developing with fake people in mind. And then when I got to certain people, when I got into this work, I was like, well, we're all creating a character with our dress and with the way that we present so let's make sure it's saying what we wanted to say.

Gordon Hall :

In my head, and I apologise for this because this is a caricature. But in my head when you're talking about working the magazines and stuff, I've got the need magazine from Ugly Betty in my head. I don't know if you watch that show. I did that. How close to reality is that show in terms of how it presents? Obviously, I guess there's some element of kind of making things a bit more dramatic than they are. But

William Graper :

is it like Devil Wears Prada? Have you seen that? Yeah.

Gordon Hall :

I've think so. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker :

Yeah. I mean, I didn't watch Ugly Betty enough to pull out an actual reference from that. But what I do know I do know the gist of it, which is just that like, some terrible person makes your life hell working in a magazine and you're willing to do it because everything's so glamorous, basically. I mean, I would say that that's not fake. I mean, I have had rocks thrown at me. I have slept at Studio Two days in a row overnight, never gone home. I've um I've been in Brazil on a photoshoot going between two yachts on a dinghy that capsizes and I'm diving to the bottom of the ocean for shoes, like, I mean, it's not a joke. And in the moment you're like God, my whole life depends on making sure I find this shoe at the bottom of the ocean and, and then get back to the hotel and like, blow dry the dress that fell in with a little menu travel blow dryer because we need to shoot it the next day. And then you get to set with it and they're like, we don't want that we're not shooting that and you've just spent all night cleaning it that all of that kind of hazing, Israel. But what I will say is like there are so many exceptions to that and there's so many really decent, wonderful people that mentored me that are would nothing like that. So I want to start by saying that but also the hazing is real and publishers like Conde Nast and others are reckoning at this moment in time with the black lives. Matter Movement and then inequality within these companies. And the the culture of these companies is built on elitism. It's built on a hierarchy of like, these brands are at the top, and you're down here and you have to aspire to want them. And that's what keeps this whole structure moving and going. So the idea that we would be here now with these magazines is not shocking to me, because that's what the identity of the brand has always been. Fashion has, was built on aspiration. And so that that I'm not speaking to the racial injustice there. I'm speaking to like the hazing and the idea that there are people that are better than other people. So you sell your soul because you're just like, this is so amazing. I'm so lucky to be here. And now what I think we're realising is that now that there's more than three, gatekeepers, and everybody has access to everything, it's almost like no, you're lucky I'm here.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah. Yeah, I'm adding value, rather than you're you're making a It's happened to me, in many ways. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker :

It's like an abusive relationship. You don't really, when you're under the thumb, you're like, well, I'm just lucky, you won't leave me, you know, and then, and then you don't realise till you're out, like all that you put up with and how crazy that was. I mean, I stayed addicted to Adderall for like, six years to keep my job, basically. You know, so, obviously, I had a choice, but I also when I tried when I tried to not take it, it was like your work production or your like, productivity is off. And it was like, well, because like, you know, 18 hour days is not realistic.

Joe Pearson :

But I made it happen. You could do with that. So why take that away?

Unknown Speaker :

Yeah. And it's, I just want to acknowledge for anyone who's listening that it's it's like, so easy to sit here when you have some success to say like, That was crazy, and I wouldn't do it again. Or it should change, because I don't know if I'd be here if I hadn't enjoyed it. You know,

Joe Pearson :

so if you failed like halfway through, if you do not quite ticks all the boxes, you want it to tick, you fall off a cliff. And then, like you're linking to some of these celebrities who like Fifth Harmony. You might have been one of those be like, I almost made it, and I touched the sun. And then I fell. And now I didn't want help today.

Unknown Speaker :

Yeah, I think you just get caught up in believing there's one way and obviously there's a million different ways. And I had experience with that early on, though, as a kid because I was raised with five siblings. Well, there were five of us total for the most part. And then my parents had adopted later on, but when I think back to my early childhood, it was five of us and my parents, and we were really well off and I got my whole identity based on being a spoiled brat. Like that was how I got attention. And that was really what I prided myself on like presenting perfectly, and my whole family did that too. And then when my parents divorced and things changed. It was like kind of realising that, like, the more, the more money we ever had the least happy we were. And yeah,

William Graper :

it was just, I realised that like, the thing we all work so hard for is not the thing that fixes you.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, I'm calling for money on it. They will work for a little bit and ensure, again, like the consistency thing, it doesn't read long term happiness and fulfilment, as well. I think

Gordon Hall :

it's just reminds me of the whole situation with COVID. Again, you know, it's reminded us what actually is important to us. It's not, oh, I need to make all of this money. It's not Oh, I need to work work work is Oh, I need to call my mom. I need to check in with my, you know, my nan and check how she's doing. And it's, it's thinking about your family is thinking about what is actually important to you. And I think sometimes it takes something like that to actually show you what what is important to you?

Joe Pearson :

And can be a big negative, because those positive things do start to breed out of you. You know what, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna be negative. I'm not gonna find out negativity, I'm gonna go the other way. How can I turn this and propel myself? I'm sure there's a lot of people actually you are making big courageous right now and doing a bit like maybe what you're doing and kind of making your own way. And I'm going to do this pretty much alone. And I'm going to keep my own. Keep my own job, in many ways, and I think a lot of people should do that if you can.

William Graper :

It's certainly certainly a privilege and

Unknown Speaker :

requires some support of at least one person who believes in you along the way. But I'll say for I work with a lot of young people and I think young people really want the answers and what I'm what I'm always kind of like, they're always shut down when I tell them it's like you have to live Have more years on earth to know what we're talking about. And no matter how smart you are, or how savvy you are at 20 years old, you haven't had enough life experience and patterns of behaviour enough to look back and say like, Oh, that's how things end up happening. So, yeah, I mean, now that you have access to everything at such a young age, there's almost more neuroses because you're like, Well, I know the truth. And like, I can't be it yet. And there's just like this tension. And so you kind of have to wait it out. It's like it's developmental. I mean, your brain isn't even fully function, or even fully formed until you're like after you're 20 years old. So it's all about deciphering risk. And like, seeing what you'll do that you can get away with and see if people love you or not still and like, you have to go through that.

Joe Pearson :

trial and error. Make the mistakes, unfortunately, make sure they don't see Yeah, We've all done bad mistakes. It happens. Yeah. Yeah. It's a pattern of human behaviour. So what does the future look like? As you propel yourself out of lockdown life and COVID-19? You seem to be COVID 21? Probably. What does it look like? Do you want to practice? Do you want this to be your day in day out? Essentially?

Unknown Speaker :

Look, I'll always style I think that I have something to say in the world of styling and whether that's one on one with a personal client or doing a big ad campaign or music video Time will tell and if I'm fortunate enough to keep getting asked, I love styling, but this is a this is a track for me that I hope to do more of and have more of more regularity of this type of work. Right now I'm still completing school so that takes up training and doing hours with clients which is very different from this kind of coaching. It's people with severe mental illness and I'm learning a lot From that experience, but the future for me would be a mix of the two. And it's kind of naturally happening that way. I mean, the people who come to me for coaching are people who care about aesthetics and style. And they see me on social media and they, they care about fashion, but they also have things they're dealing with. And we kind of talk about both things. So I hope to hone the message a little bit more as I move along based on what people are really wanting and listening to what people need. But the future for sure looks a lot slower than it did before like taking out time for myself to get quiet and not driving around so much. And spending more time in nature. I mean, all the things I've incorporated cooking that all those things that bring me down to earth. I want to keep with so

Joe Pearson :

yeah. Nice.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah. So with your, um, I was looking on your website, and I saw that you have an app. Is that right?

William Graper :

So the closet app? Yes. Yeah. Do you want to know about that?

Gordon Hall :

Yeah, if that's okay. I was I was on the phone to my sister earlier, actually, while I was looking through your website, and I mentioned it to her, and read out what is on there. And she immediately was like, Oh my gosh, that sounds incredible. So you definitely seem to have one potential client and her.

Joe Pearson :

So

Gordon Hall :

yeah, yeah, we'll definitely I'll send her your email.

Unknown Speaker :

I didn't want this. Yeah, closet app is the closet is basically an answer to the frustration of getting ready in the morning. And to having an overwhelming closet. The majority of one on one work I do happens to be in women's closets, trying to figure out what they should keep what they should get rid of what looks good together, not necessarily buying more, but trying to rework the things they already own and identifying the things that they might need to fill in with that they don't own. And then a lot of my clients travel a lot, and they don't want to have to worry about what they're going to wear the entire week that they're travelling. So the app is a great way of organising everything that my clients own by colour style brand fabrication occasion. And then I can create links for my clients with their closet so that they have them on the go in their hands. It's really great.

Gordon Hall :

Well, and in terms of how does that work, if if, say, for example, my sister were to sign up for it. Obviously, she is. She's currently living in Bristol, you're in LA? How would that work? Would she take the photos of her clothes and send them to you prior to the consultation, or how would that work?

Unknown Speaker :

So we're kind of figuring out how to roll out the international process and to people that are not right here in Los Angeles. I've been so busy with women just here that are interested in this idea and as it works now is Come to your home and I go through your entire closet and I archive everything myself or my one of my team members does that. So there is a way in which I have a client in New York, she took photos of everything that she owns. And she sends them to me. And then I upload the app and I get them ready for her. And then I send them to her and she's got the app now ready to go. But it's just a matter of whether clients would be willing to do that or not. I'm finding that most people want me to come in and have it be like a full service thing so they can live their life, which I totally understand and love to do. But for people that are in other states if they're willing to take photos of their clothes, and I would give direct instructions for that.

Joe Pearson :

It's totally easily done. And the UK as well. Yeah. It's a great style, some of them some of those like me and Gordon. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker :

Yeah, I mean, it's not it's it's I think women are especially In need of an app like this, just because there's so many different self expressions that come through women's clothing, and there's just so many different accessories and, you know, men tend to find a lane and stick to it and build within the same lane. You know, there's no men are not like thinking like, do I want to feel sexy? Did I do I want to feel playful tonight? Do I want to feel sophisticated tonight? Like they're either wearing like, you know, what they wear during the day, or they're wearing what they wear at night, or they're wearing a suit. So it's just I don't find as many men to want the app as much as women and less. Yeah, they're men who like have red carpet appearances and just like tonnes of clothes, and then they're overwhelmed. Yeah.

Gordon Hall :

I guess men would be a more a one on one in this like a consultation, and then the relationship would end there. That kind of thing, rather than it being a ongoing relationship most of the time.

Unknown Speaker :

Yeah, men tend to be like they're in the middle of a transition and they're not sure you know, they're just quit their job and they're trying to figure out job interviewing or There's usually a mission with men. Yeah. So a lot of the men I've styled had been musicians, and they're going on tour, or they have a music video or they have a press junket, and they just want to look really put together. And with those people, like we don't usually rent things, we buy things for them. Because with women, they might have an event, we can rent them and they wear them once and it's cheap, it's less expensive than buying it. But for men, they want to own what they buy. They want to wear own things, they can rotate in a lot, and often times that period between like 29 and 30. You're sort of transitioning into like, true adulthood, and you're like, Okay, I kind of probably shouldn't wear tank tops anymore, you know? So you're kind of like, what do I do and unless you had a well dressed father, or brother or uncle or boss, you know, you don't know where to go and like GQ is not telling you the truth. I

Joe Pearson :

think a lot of wives buy men clothes still. I know when I go through men's clothing, racks, and it's just the More women there and I'm like, What? What is going on? You know, am I the minority? Am I the only man still buying my own t shirts? Or is the game change, I don't know what's going on, I might get women that are just furiously going through the racks finding the polo shirt that will actually wear

Unknown Speaker :

Well, it's one of the worst things you can do for your relationship. That's for sure is is allow your allow your wife or girlfriend or boyfriend partner to dress you, it just becomes it's a dangerous road. Because in the same way that you need people beyond your partner and your family to deal with your to help you unpack your everyday stresses and problems. It's not your partner's responsibility to be that person and it's not your partner's responsibility to address you. And there is a sense of needing to control which I'd want to look at in the partner who's trying to always dress their partner. But and then also sort of on the other end, there's not taking responsibility and letting your partner address you as part of the problem. There's like a submissive base there. Yeah, there's so much to look at in every individual case. But I do think that obviously, my partner has told me like, you look really handsome in that top and like, so I wear that top a lot. That happens all the time. And that's lovely. But it's you don't want your partner deciding all of that for you.

Joe Pearson :

Have you had a couple of people where that's happened? Have you maybe gone through maybe some women's clothes or whatever? And actually, there's a lot of things that he may have bought, or she may have bought her.

Unknown Speaker :

Yeah, there's always a lot of like, well, she got that for me and I don't love it, but on, you know, this is a dress that he really likes me and I can't get rid of it. Look, these are not end of the world things. But I just know that like when I dated I dated a hairstylist for a while and loved him to death. He was so talented, but like he was not going to touch my hair. Because the reality is if I hated the haircut, I didn't want to have to tell my partner. I love you, but because it just adds a weight to your relationship that isn't necessary. There's A million grey hair stylists out there. Why am I going to put that pressure on my relationship? So I learned early on that like, that's just not my partner is currently an agent. And I'm just like, Yeah, I don't I love that you give me a little bit of advice. But beyond that, like you're not my agent. And that's, that's not a weight I want to put on our relationship.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, it's good to have something like that.

William Graper :

Right? Mm hmm.

Joe Pearson :

Awesome.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah, I think now would be a great time unless you, you've got anything else that you wanted to go over or anything like that it would be a good time to go with the good news.

Unknown Speaker :

The good news? Yeah, well, the Supreme Court just made a major decision and the rights of LGBTQ people. So it's now no longer legal constitutionally to discriminate against LGBTQ people in the workplace. So this is just the day after pride when 30,000 people came out yesterday for for lots of different causes one of them being LGBTQ pride. It's just an awesome when.

Gordon Hall :

Fantastic. Yeah, I saw that news earlier today. Yeah,

William Graper :

yeah, I think it comes is shocking to some people because i think

Unknown Speaker :

i think people think because they watch Queer Eye that like, everything's cool. And you know, and like, similarly I think people think, because they elected Obama racism doesn't exist and it's just not true. And so this win is a really big deal for me in my community. And I think it's important for people to know that this was still very much something we dealt with, even though you watched willing grace,

William Graper :

you know, yeah, we still are up against a lot. Yeah.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah. It's so surprising that it's taken this long to get there. I know.

Unknown Speaker :

I know. You know, Obama was the first I mean Could be totally misquoted. Maybe there'll be someone who tells me otherwise. But I'm pretty sure Obama was the first to acknowledge when he talked about equality. Gay people, you know, he was really the first president to be like, we are all equal, regardless of skin. nationality, like Annie said, and gender, gender and sexuality. And it was just like, huge to hear from, you know, the president. It seems so small, but it was so big to have never heard that to normalise our experience like that. So that was really,

Joe Pearson :

really hot. You had a conversation with someone and he's made the choice to to put that in that. It's such a small phrase he probably put in but so powerful at the same.

William Graper :

Yeah, so this is a big one. And I think that, you know, with all that's going on, it's there. There is some good news.

Joe Pearson :

Amazing.

Gordon Hall :

Well, thank you very much, William.

Joe Pearson :

Thanks for having me on you, William.

Unknown Speaker :

Yeah, you can go to William Graper. Calm and book a session with me. We can do the app or one on one sessions. So that just relaunched and really excited for people to see that or you can check it out on Instagram, William underscore Graper. Thank you.

William Graper :

Thank you.

Joe Pearson :

That was some fantastic news that she's here, especially in a place like America, which seems kind of a bit up in the air right now. It's nice to hear some actual real positive change.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah, no, absolutely. And it really brings home. The fact that, you know, this last weekend we've had protests in, in the UK about a very similar issue. And it just shows that if progress can be made in the States, it can definitely happen here. Because usually, it's the other way around with this kind of thing.

Joe Pearson :

Exactly right. And we'll get at some point in the future that maybe we could touch on these kind of issues as well and a bit more detail. And we certainly got Yeah, quite a lot of good stuff planned in the Future.

Gordon Hall :

Absolutely. And if you've got a story to tell, and you want to come on and share your story of how you've been through a massive change in your life and how that's affected, you had two guests at the lemonade pod calm and we've put a little application form out there, where you can put your details in and hopefully come on and share your story with our listeners.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, absolutely get involved. We appreciate any feedback. We've got loads of positive feedback and a couple of points as well. That is always welcome. And of course, if you are liking what you're hearing, always review because it helps us out a little bit.

Gordon Hall :

Yes, absolutely. Drop us a review on Apple podcasts on Stitcher or on pod chaser, which we now are up and running on. So you can drop us a review there. If you head straight to our website, there's a handy little button. You can click on that to leave us a review there. But I think that's all that we've got time for this week. I think all that's left to say is goodbye from me. And goodbye from it and we'll see you next week. They say, bye. And thank you once again to Haley for the incredible logo to Harry for the amazing music that you can hear right now and to Leah for all of the incredible work that she does behind the scenes. And thanks once again to you the listener for all that you're doing. Please keep getting in touch with us. Let us know what you think of the show, and we'll see you next week.