Liminal Podcast

Suicide Happened on a Monday

July 06, 2020 Shiggi Pakter, Gordon Hall and Joe Pearson Season 2 Episode 4
Liminal Podcast
Suicide Happened on a Monday
Chapters
Liminal Podcast
Suicide Happened on a Monday
Jul 06, 2020 Season 2 Episode 4
Shiggi Pakter, Gordon Hall and Joe Pearson

Shiggi is a Dutch-Kenyan living in London. She's gone from working at Yellow Pages to being her own boss, being headhunted for and working as an events manager at the London 2012 Olympics and just as she had to part ways with a business partner of an adventure startup and launch her own audio content business

She presents musings, experiences and thoughts every Wednesday on her podcast 'Getting Shiggi with…' Shiggi joins Joe and Gord to talk about suicide, the logistics of Kenyan funerals and dancing across the equator.

Trigger Warning

This episode features discussion of suicide.

Show Notes

Shiggi's Podcast
Shiggi's Instagram
Shiggi's Twitter

Liminal Podcast is about dealing with change, be that through humour, self-care, science, or spirituality. Join Joe and Gordon as they laugh and ponder, as well as speak to experts and friends, trying to figure out how to deal with life when the rug has been pulled from under your feet.

We’d love to hear from you! If you want to get in touch click here.

Liminal Podcast couldn’t happen without the support of our team, as always massive thank you to Harry for writing the theme music, Haley for creating our logo and Leah for everything she does behind the scenes. Thank you to everyone who rates and reviews the show, we really appreciate it.

Subscribe to Liminal Podcast

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Follow us on social media

Facebook
Instagram
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Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/theliminalpod)

Show Notes Transcript

Shiggi is a Dutch-Kenyan living in London. She's gone from working at Yellow Pages to being her own boss, being headhunted for and working as an events manager at the London 2012 Olympics and just as she had to part ways with a business partner of an adventure startup and launch her own audio content business

She presents musings, experiences and thoughts every Wednesday on her podcast 'Getting Shiggi with…' Shiggi joins Joe and Gord to talk about suicide, the logistics of Kenyan funerals and dancing across the equator.

Trigger Warning

This episode features discussion of suicide.

Show Notes

Shiggi's Podcast
Shiggi's Instagram
Shiggi's Twitter

Liminal Podcast is about dealing with change, be that through humour, self-care, science, or spirituality. Join Joe and Gordon as they laugh and ponder, as well as speak to experts and friends, trying to figure out how to deal with life when the rug has been pulled from under your feet.

We’d love to hear from you! If you want to get in touch click here.

Liminal Podcast couldn’t happen without the support of our team, as always massive thank you to Harry for writing the theme music, Haley for creating our logo and Leah for everything she does behind the scenes. Thank you to everyone who rates and reviews the show, we really appreciate it.

Subscribe to Liminal Podcast

Apple Podcasts
YouTube
Spotify
Stitcher

Follow us on social media

Facebook
Instagram
Twitter
TikTok

Support the show (https://www.patreon.com/theliminalpod)

Gordon Hall :

Hello, and welcome back to Liminal podcast. You're with Gordon and Joe once again How you doing, Joe? I'm good. Yeah,

Joe Pearson :

I'm good. I'm not nursing a hangover from the reopening of the Pope's and clubs in England.

Gordon Hall :

That's good. Yeah, it's been absolutely mental what's been going on? I've seen scenes in Soho of absolute Carnage people not respecting the social distancing at all. It's really quite worrying.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, a little bit worrying. Obviously, I'm from the west up and we are in the midst of a Leicester lockdown, which is trending on Twitter, Facebook and around the world, which is

Gordon Hall :

quite fun. Yeah. I mean, your your family is still there. Right? How are they coping is

Joe Pearson :

like, fine, really? I'm a mum dad are both retired anyway, so they're not really not affecting work or anything like that. But yeah, there's some weird maps of what's actually locked down in Leicester. So a lot of what my dad's repo thing is people going from the city out to the villages to drink and pumps and things like that. So there's kind of these weird internal politics that go along with it. But yeah, I'm pretty sure

Gordon Hall :

it's gonna spread the problem further and further, isn't it?

Joe Pearson :

Pretty much pretty much but I don't think it's probably gonna be the last local lockdown. There's a lot of other hotbeds that are on the same kind of level less than was at.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah, definitely. And you know, pumps aren't the only thing that's been reopening. We've seen the the reintroduction of cinemas starting to reopen. And we've seen restaurants obviously starting to reopen as well, with new measures in place. And to be honest, some of the measures that I'm seeing coming in that they're actually measures that I think should have been around a long time ago anyway. You know, particularly public transport, not having to sit next to a stranger. I hate that anyway, in the cinema, the same thing, you know, now you can sit in a group with your friends and family who you're with, but anybody else has to be far are away from you, which means you no longer having to share an arm rest with a massive, sweaty man, like yourself, Joe, or anything like that. I've been that man. Yes, you have indeed I've been to the cinema with you Don't you forget it?

Joe Pearson :

It's like aeroplanes for me. There's simply not made for a man of my size. You know? It's not just a high Obviously, I'm quite a way man anyway, as well. I want my room and I need my room. Because if not, I'm gonna eat into your room. Absolutely. Anyway, to get that picture of me eating up your arm restroom as your mind. We have got a very interesting person this week.

Gordon Hall :

Yes, indeed. And just a disclaimer at the front of this episode. We do talk about things of quite a sensitive nature. We talk about suicide and quite a graphic way. So just as a trigger warning to anyone who might be affected by something like that. You're absolutely Welcome to switch off right now. We'll be here next week with another episode. But if you're You're happy to continue then this week's guest is a Dutch Kenyan living in London. She's gone from working at the yellow pages to being her own boss, and then being headhunted to work as an events manager at the London 2012 Olympics. That's pretty cool. And just as their two part ways with a business partner have a an adventure startup that didn't go quite as she planned. She just launched her own audio content business. She also presents musings experiences and thoughts every Wednesday on her podcast GETTING JIGGY with talking to us today about suicide. the logistics of Kenyan funerals and dancing across the equator is my absolute pleasure to introduce to you shiggy Pachter So, hello Charlie, how you doing today?

Shiggi :

I am very well thank you. Um, well As well as I can be considering the madness in the world, but yeah, I'm doing good. Otherwise,

Joe Pearson :

you're listening right? Oh,

Shiggi :

are you in the home? I'm in London. I'm in in southwest London. zone to kind of area. Okay.

Joe Pearson :

So yeah,

Gordon Hall :

yeah. So what what is it that you do?

Shiggi :

So? Yeah, I'm, like sound engineer permanent sound engineer for a long time, there's a song in the background. I've been assigned a job since like 2004. And mostly like live monitoring. So like in nightclubs and like venues. So I do the miking for like comedians and bands and all that kind of jazz. Weirdly, like jazz, I actually haven't moved up a jazz band. But beyond that, like I kind of did it for a while and it's a very male kind of dominated space and like, you know, being a supervisor for event venue. I'd always be like knocking heads with guys and it was like, you know, I'm actually over all of this. So I just left it and I just was just like, Before higher as when people kind of got wind of who I was. And recently, after God knows how many failed startups, I've finally kind of decided to actually use my skill set to help people with like producing audiobooks and podcasts. That's been around for a year, just over a year. Started in November 2018. officially started in January 2019. And we're here now so yeah, one of the things I do, I'm a DJ as well. So I've got that in

Joe Pearson :

every audio, we've got it all Yeah,

Shiggi :

I mean, it bar film, like I tried film. And there's just so much that goes into it. Like it's just, it just is just too much and people like Oh, can you do this? And this I'm like, No, those are two separate things like sound Foley artists versus someone who like cleans up the vocal, you know, track of some of the speech track are two very different humans. Both of those like Not gonna sit here like squishing a watermelon to make it sound like someone's stabbing someone in the chest like it's not my thing. I think that's what they did for. What was it? Not American Psycho. What's the American Psycho? No, there's one movie where like there's a stabbing scene and it's actually I think they were like squishing a watermelon to get the sound. Oh, random random factor today. I can't remember the actual movie. It's something psycho but yeah,

Gordon Hall :

yeah. Yeah, I did. Uh, when I was at college, I sat in on a Foley session for the outnumbered Christmas special. That was that was a scene where one of the characters has to be sick outside. And to do that we used newspaper that made it really wet and threw it onto some concrete. Yep. Yeah. And that made the sound of sick falling into the floor.

Shiggi :

It's the trunk got the chunks and Eric, I can hear Yeah, he added pappi a mash a kind of glue. Yeah, that made it kind of not super gloopy but like semi gloopy then you've got the whole the whole thing. Yeah.

Gordon Hall :

Okay, not how I expected this

Joe Pearson :

with images bouncing

Shiggi :

thing.

Gordon Hall :

Joe say something profound and

Joe Pearson :

clever. Usually usually do bring it back in. So obviously you've come here to tell him the story. So you come in audio engineer. What was life like before that there's a something that pushed you into it or

Shiggi :

so I can I can give you like a like that there's so much and we could let be sat here for hours. And I know we've all got lives to live. So I'll pull it in a little bit. So I'm, I'm Kenyan, right? I am 100% Kenyan. born, raised, bred on the, like, moved to England when I was 15. And I'm, I'm early 30s now. So now I've been to boarding school I learned how to do some engineering just because that's why I was into like, I'm an instrumentalist. I play like 11 plus instruments and stuff. So the sound engineering thing was always kind of like an under bubble. But I've worked in security. I've been a manager for the London 2012 Olympics. So I worked in security for so long. I started in 2008 2012 happened. And I've been a personal trainer for ages because my mum used to be a bodybuilder. And I've, I've done two startups like the first one, I don't consider a startup because it was a hardware startup in designing a indicating bike glove. That was based on haptic feedback and dryer sensors and stuff. It was too early. The idea was sound, but the technology was insanely expensive, especially the software to help Kind of crossover, because that was 2010 11 2010 2011 was when I had the idea about funding for it. I took out a huge personal loan, don't do that. And I did all of that. And I reached the point where it's going to flow of the train and start doing prototyping, but it's like for each glove, and each SKU each skew like you needed about 25,000 pounds just to do prototyping. And I'm like, I'm not comfortable with like having 250 thousand pounds of like unsecured loans on my name. Yeah, I was already quite high into that area. So I kind of let that one drop in and you know, carried on with fitness and everything. And then I did really good at my fitness job or business and reached a point where it's kind of chill and I was only working 20 hours a week and I'm like, this sucks. I hate this. Everything's horrible. It's like but you're earning great money, but you're miserable. So I'm, weirdly enough the death of my Mother so she passed away peacefully alright just decided you know that's it done and that affected me Me and my mother had a fight. So this is like the first kind of inkling into you know the troubles and we flew over to back to Kenya the funeral African funerals are very very different to Western funerals for one they last two weeks all right that they're not it's not a one day go to do the funeral you cry, have a few beers and then you know, have a fight with your uncle. It's not like that at all. It's it's a bit different. Where we have because we have a home what's the word? What's the word? I'm looking for? burial site, burial ground. cemetery. We have one of those. But it's our own family cemetery. So people come home when we die, we come back home as it were. With that we have a village in our area and village elders come in village. People come in. It's like an entire community come in. And for my grandmother I have never seen Well, yeah, as an adult. I've never seen the amount of people that showed up. I think those over the three days we were there, out to two weeks, at least over 1000 people had come through our life. And of those 1000 people, like 400 of them were the cluster of the village, right. And I had to sit with my Uncle and Auntie like in a line and have everyone like coming in and paying they're sharing their condolences and shaking their hand and they're speaking Swahili. I don't speak a word of Swahili. So I'm just there kind of going this is really surreal, you know? And people smiling going, Hey, like, you know that smile when someone recognises you and you kind of throw it back at them like, I don't know what's going on, but Okay, hi. Like, yeah, that was it. For a good few hundred people. I just kind of got numb to it. After a while. I just had a permanent like, smile on my face at a funeral as you do You know, so so that was a thing. And me and my mom were really not getting on like she was struggling through that I was trying to help but like we just were just bashing heads. Literally, we actually got into a physical fight physical altercation, which was not great. We didn't speak for ages after that. But um, so yeah, so that was that was like during my startup kind of area era, and then chose as a personal trainer, and then I kind of switched over to friends go rock climbing Woods was starting a adventure company to bring people from the UK to Italy. From outside, cool. Yeah, like we can get onto this because I've actually want to start an adventure business in Kenya. Because when my grandmother lives, the outcrop of rocks is insane, and no one's climbing them. And I'm like, why? why are people not climbing these like granite and just amazing kind of rocks. And so we went into business together, and I was a business partner. So I wasn't working for him. Like we're working together. And initially, it was cool. It was great. But hey, I'm very misogynistic outlook on the world was not gelling with me. And he wanted to do a lot of charity work and I'm like, cool, I'm totally down for that. Like, let's have a story like, why do you want to do charity? Like, you need to have a face? successor charities have faces and stories, right? Then they come from the heart. He had none of those. And I was just like, I can't, I can't create a charitable aspect of this business if you don't even want to put yourself in front of it, you know? And it's like, why don't you in my, I've got mine in Kenya, like, I can't associate that with this because it's, they're very, two different things. So, um, that kind of ended quite an ugly manner. Not I'm not gonna go into too much detail of that, because it's still a bit ugly now. But, um, yeah, after that. A friend of mine who's an entrepreneur was just like, I've got these audio files and I need to make it an order. audiobook and someone helped me and I'm just like, we're drinking buddies. Like we drink gin in these huge freaking tumblers. It's insane. Like he's he's a big human. Okay, I am a freaking hobbit compared to him. And like when it goes, I'm just gonna have a drink and I'm just like, haha, okay, fine. I just write off the next four days. But um, so so I got his audio files and I edited them and I sent them to audible and I'm just like, that was easy just like, you want to make it a business and I was like, Alright, and I did that was it, like really get to that point. So that started off great. And then start was 2018 I mean, I haven't given you times but that's that's as far as I got. And then yeah, my mother started being weird. At the beginning of 2019. She went back home, she hates Kenya or she told me for like most of my life like I'll never want to go back there. But she went back. Not Oh, that was weird. We met up My Auntie's just like you have to come over to Ireland. You have to and I'm like, if the flights are cheap enough, I'll fly over the flights for like 30 quid return. I'm like, fuck back then. Oh, I don't know if I'm allowed to swear or not. So

Gordon Hall :

yeah. It's fun. All right.

Shiggi :

So yeah, like the flights were insanely cheap. It was a British Airways Flight as well. I'm just like, Oh, come on. So, yeah, yeah. And I had a business account with British Airways. And, you know, because because of my business being an adventure business, like I had, you know, all these business accounts, I just put it on the business tab. That was still open, my business tabs were still open, which was weird, but whatever, just throw on that. One Flew Over to Ireland's and that was awkward. Yeah, you know, you haven't if you don't speak to a parent for like 18 months, and then you surprise her, right? Because no one you know, your aunties like, Oh, this is gonna be so much. It's gonna be old love and hugs and you're just like, You don't understand. This is gonna be ugly. Like, just have the whiskey ready and the gin. It's just gonna really, really seriously man, it was it was pretty ugly Not gonna lie, like the first kind of Hello. She's just like, what the hell is this and like, it's a human that you gave birth to, like high end and that was a whole thing. But we made peace. You know, the four days I was there, we made peace and everything and I was just like, Look, I'm just going to apologise for the fight that we had even though you're the one that hit me, but you know, fine. I'm sorry for you hitting me. And she's like, that's all I wanted to hear. And I'm like, okay, fine, whatever, as long as we can talk and stuff. So we left it at that and I thought things were okay. And she, you know, she never messaged me. I sent her messages out, but it felt better rather than the animosity. We're having. And so yeah, so we were we were, you know, we're, I'm sending her messages and, you know, I wasn't really getting anything bad, but I was kind of okay with that because that's like, the way our relationship was before we had our altercation. And at the time, I was in a relationship that was kind of falling apart anyway. And we were trying to like make amends, but things were just, you know, not really working. He had a drink and drug and drinks problem that I was trying to help him through. But, you know, you can't help someone if they don't want to be helped. Right? So you know, we're doing we're trying to patch whatever up was left. And in the most, I suppose dramatic fashion that my mother knows how. And in May two beginning end of May, she killed herself. And no one knew that this was on the table, you know, and I like it was the sixth of May. That's when she did it. And it's the most surreal day cuz made the partner at the time his son and the ex wife were all on good talking terms by the way. So for that to be weird dynamic, me and the ex wife are totally cool and dishonour. Totally cool. So all of us go to the cinema to go watch. Avengers endgame. Right. Okay. So kind of kind of a profound moment, right? Yeah. And you know, we're leaving the cinema and we're, you know, I I live philosophy and for me like the whole kind of idea of fantasy fantasy wanting to, you know, balance the world and everything. I was really getting into it, trying to like, pull it apart and try and understand, you know, why he was doing it, why it was probably the right idea and why it was the wrong idea. And yeah, the partner was, he was like, why are you reading into this so much? It's just a movie. I'm just like, how dare you. It's much more concepts that needs to be discussed. And the ex wife kind of understood it, but she wasn't really into any of that either. She's like, I kind of get what you're saying. And I'm like, Can't talk to either of you about this, but the sun was into it. It's like, Yeah, but like if you have to kill everybody, what does that mean for the rest of them? Like Exactly. Like, I mean, a 10 year old we're having a deeply philosophical conversation about finals in a pub.

Joe Pearson :

emotions,

Shiggi :

you know? Yeah, it's, it's it's England, right? So we were talking and everything and just chilling out and you know, huge dynamics of conversations happened. So the ex wife and the son left and it was just me and my partner there. And then my dad is ringing me through Facebook. So my dad is my stepdad. And he's 93. Okay, he's a Holocaust survivor, as well. So, big things. And for for someone that age to be able to navigate technology in To bring his stepdaughter on Facebook, right? You're like, I'm going to pick this up because I, I, I can't ignore this phone call because this is so out of the norm, right? Because I pick up the phone and my dad is Dutchess ready and white. All right? Okay, and he's in Israel and kind of doing that thing. So I pick up the phone and my What will she be? Step sister. Yeah, so my step sisters on the phone speaking very broken English because she's fully Israeli and speaks Hebrew and I don't speak Hebrew chose not to. And you know, she's trying to explain that something's happened to my mother. And I'm like, Yeah, what? I'm pretty sure she can ring me if there's a problem. I don't see why you're calling me like we're not on good terms. And she's like, No, no, no, no, no, something bad has happened to your mother and I'm like, Okay, fine. Now, I'm not putting two and two together yet. So go outside, just leave the partner and then I have to go till distance. Finally being stupid. I was assuming and then they tell me like yeah, your mother shot herself but I'm just like wait, like it wasn't going through? I probably cuz living in the UK living in Kenya living in any place that doesn't have guns basically you don't think about that if someone's going to commit suicide you think of like drugs, alcohol knives, something like that, right? You don't think of a gun, which my mom has, I've actually shot the gun that she shot herself with it is an elephant gun. It's was it it's a magnum revolver as the point 357 calibre bullet. I actually, I don't know how I managed to bring a bullet home from the States, but I could pull it. It's about like, kind of that big. That's the size of one of those right? Which is what about an inch and then just over an inch, inch and a half? Yeah. And then by the time It's about just under a centimetre as well. So pretty, pretty big old bullet, more personal gun. So I cried. I screamed, I did all the things and kind of went through trying to understand what happened and they were there explaining it and they're explaining my younger half brother. Yeah, half brother was living with my mom because he's got Asperger's. And my mom was his carer. So apparently he was the one that well, he had his hand on the door that was locked of her bedroom when she shot herself because the police came in because she was on the phone, you know, in a bad way. The person on the phone realised that she wasn't like she was a harm to herself, so dispatched to police. But they didn't get well they got there on time. But because the door was locked, like they couldn't get in the way of what she was she was going to do. And there was a police officer in the block that they lived in, thankfully So he came down and was looking after my brother and stuff. So when she shot herself, the police like barged in through the door and just broke the door. But you know, it's obviously too late because she shot herself under the chin. So, rather than kind of doing that slide or anything, she shot herself on the chin straight into her brain and it was lodged Apparently, this is all from a police report, by the way. I obviously don't have first hand account and my brother thankfully doesn't have that photographic first hand account. Yeah, um, so you know, I'm kind of jumping the gun a little bit because like these, these bits kind of get I can get into a lot of detail into it. But again, I'm trying to keep this as short as possible. And yeah, so the initial being by the pub and kind of being like holy crap, like just the initial shock and and horror and just painting of it all and talking to my dad's talking to my step, sister. I don't think my step brother was there, but like Her husband was there. And we're all talking in broken English in Hebrew. And I'm using Google translate to try and say some stuff in Hebrew, which works really well. It's insane how far Google Translate is come come along in the years to the forest, being able to have a proper conversation. And so we were talking and stuff and they're like, Okay, well, you know, we just wanted to let you know, we're here for you like, Okay, cool. I have a lot of stuff I need to do. I need your help. I'll get back to you. Like when I know, I need to go talk to my uncle who is my mom's brother, your closest brother, so we lost the other uncle, and the Auntie's still there and then the brothers here so my mom had two brothers and a sister said they were you four. So one's gone. Mom's gone. There's two left. So I call my uncle once I've kind of gathered myself a little bit. And English people are really, really weird when it comes to Observing someone experiencing pain like, you know, I'm sat in front of a pub in like Fulham, right? In a highly residential area, I'm crying and everything and that these people just woke me just kind of don't engage. Don't even look at them don't don't don't engage, you know, just just just walk by and nothing's happening. They're far too emotional for us. Like, I'm cool with that because I don't think anyone could help me with my situation, but at the same time, it's just like, I know if I was anywhere else, someone would at least come and put a hand on your shoulder just kind of be like, are you okay? Yeah. Even expecting anything out of that. Just like, are you okay? If yes, cool. Just, I hope you get better, you know, or something. Some have compassion, but some British people, the British people,

Joe Pearson :

I think, and I hope it's this I think they do it for politeness. It's a bit like that. offices crying that don't look yet. Let's all pretend happening and they will progress. That's the logic. I think like queueing every form the queue form the queue. We all know what to do after talk about what would make the queue Okay.

Shiggi :

One of those things, I think you're right. That's that's kind of why I wasn't bothered by it. Because I've lived here for long enough. And I've been, I've been very privately educated. So I very much understand the mannerisms that British people have. And I'm okay with it. Like you say, like, this is like, oh, my god, she's having, you know, she's having her issues and, and I feel maybe we don't want to encroach on her. So, you know, just just carry on. So, I think you're right in that respect, and I was also really cool with it because I had to, I had a lot to think about and process and, you know, try and put out there. So I called my uncle and he does exactly the same thing. I just did. For like, 15 minutes, just through all of it, you know, the question is why when suicide happens, the first question that everyone always has is why, which is the most? I understand again, why people ask why. But it's the least important question to ask. Some. You know, if we knew why then the suicide wouldn't have happened. Right? No one knows why. Nine times out of 10 is just people are tired. You know, just That's all it is. You're just tired of everything. And you're just like, it's the pain of being tired is so great, that you just opt to just leave because it's less painful, you know? Yeah. So he went through through all of that, I went through all of that. And then from that day, for a month, sixth of May to the 10th of June. Yeah. So I had basically what could only describe as a crusade That lasted a month. So you know, got everything in order. My stepdad, my uncle a couple of other people helped like financially It was a huge thing. All lumped in together like my passport was expired because I was being really lazy with the comma travelling. I've got Dutch passport. I'm not an illegal immigrant. Okay. thing out there. And the Dutch embassy were amazing. I called them up and like, Look, you know, this has happened and like, Okay, cool. Have you got report, my cousin in the states pulled a few strings and the police department, like got that sorted out, which was amazing. And got the report, sent it in the Dutch embassy were amazing. It's like usually about five days to do an emergency turnaround. They didn't too. Well. Got a pass for flight got booked, hotel got sorted out my stepdad sorted out the hotel and said, Look, I'll just do an Airbnb and he's like, No, no, no, no, no. You need to be able to sleep properly at night and not have to worry about anything. And like no, Airbnb is fun. It's like This isn't a discussion. I've booked it, and I'll be fine, whatever. Being very Israeli dad, and yeah, going over there. When you're a believer of suicides, like there's no Field Manual for any of this. And I, every day, I was just like, I wish there was like, you know, sometimes I just gone to Google and it's like suicide bereavement, how to deal with it, and it's just like, there's no for dummies book. So annoying. So you have to go through everything. Like you have to go through the motions and I had to go into the apartment, which initially I felt I thought was gonna be like a scene out of Dexter. Have you watched Dexter and kind of

Gordon Hall :

seeing enough of it? Yeah.

Shiggi :

Okay, cool. So I've watched a lot of it. So like kind of the season two like you know, Iceman Iceman truck kind of thing where you have like, rooms full of just like plastic and just like blood all over the place. So mentally, that's what I was. prepared for us prepared for like putrid smells like rotting fruits and fruit flies just watch too many horror movies outside mentally preparing for that my uncle was with me. He's like, you know, I'll be here I won't kind of encroach but just be here so opening the door was a bit crazy. Open the door air conditioning on electricity still running water still running. She has this weird like room vaporizer thing that was still going like Oh, it smells like home. Oh, I don't like and you don't know how to process when that space smells normal. Yeah, it to be something of a horror movie. Like just smelling of death. I was expecting the smell of death. Hmm. I don't even know what the smell of death is like, but I had it in my head that you know that was going to be a thing. And I mentioned before the way she died, because that's actually quite important because there was no splattering anywhere. Because that was my biggest fear. It's just like, Am I going to have to come into a room or an apartment, a two bedroom apartment? And one of these rooms? I'm gonna have to spend the most time in my mom's bedroom. Is it going to just be this like, crime scene. And it wasn't. Thankfully, it wasn't, there wasn't any evidence of anything at all. And I later found out from my uncle, that she had attempted suicide before with a gun, because she's had that ever since she moved to the states in 2001. And she was going to go through the temple, right and she didn't do it through the temple because she didn't want anyone to have to deal with the cleanup afterwards because if you go through the temple, it comes out the other side, right and always, so she did her homework and knew that going underneath the chin it will get lodged in the brain with a gun of that kind of calibre, which is a very typical mum thing, too. So she she She was very considerate for whoever was going to come in and clean up the mess. Thanks, Mom. And say I'm dealing with all of that.

Joe Pearson :

Was that some after four she fought interest? So I thought, yeah, the door and stuff. So yeah,

Shiggi :

yeah. So um, so that was that was all pretty crazy. Dealing without having to claim the body is a weird experience as well. And again, like you kind of think like if you watch too many crime movies and TV series and stuff you like Okay, I'm gonna have to go into a morgue and identify the body like am I going to have to look at a dead body right now like I really I'm not up for seeing my mom as a dead thing. And thankfully You didn't have to because she was still facially recognisable. I had her ID I brought her ID down and all that stuff. Okay, cool. Here's your number. So my mom got reduced to a number That was it. I never saw her body. All I had was this number and documents that were signing off the same number every single point from her moving to a morgue to the crematorium to be cremated. So that was good. But beyond that going through her affairs and everything was pretty, pretty exhausting. Because when you're not around a parent, and then you go in, and you have to go through their stuff, you find stuff that you're not meant to find, as a child of a parent, you know, especially if you guys haven't been, you know, doing well. My mom wrote diaries, and I read some of them and that was a horrible experience, like because she just writes everything. And she wrote about her fight. And the way I read that fight, I was just like, wow, I'm an absolute asshole. And I'm like, but that's not what happened. Like, that's literally not what happens, but her experience was in such a way That I now like, in hindsight now I understand she did like why she did what she did the way she did because of how she viewed the whole situation and I'm just like, I just asked you if you needed me to be quiet supportive person or someone who's a bit lively and can keep a room entertained like whilst we're going through a funeral that's all I asked, but she saw them in completely different creature. So yeah, dealing with all of that was pretty painful. I decided not to read any more diaries. So for anyone who's kind of in the in a similar situation to me, don't read your parents diaries. Yeah, do it. It's a bad idea. any personal thing. Get paper shredder, like paper shredders are great. I bought a paper shredder and just shred anything that's, you know, handwritten or personal cards, shred all the cards shred everything, because, like, data security is so important now anyway. And I hear like, nightmare stories about people who are pooping dead for years, having like living entities of themselves just around the US, like, you know, their social security number has been adopted, their address has been adopted their banks, bank accounts have been you know, all of that kind of stuff has been taken. So just shredded all of which is mad. And then yeah, kind of similar to my grandmother taking a cremated body. So my mum was basically cremated and put into a box that was like, what, maybe 10 centimetres, the base was 10 centimetres by maybe about 14 centimetres high and then like five centimetres kind of thick. A cube, right? Just Just tank the tube. And she was in my backpack the entire time as I flew back to Kenya, which Oh, like, right like you think of a dead person then you're like, no, there has to be like a coffin and then you have to like do the international whatever thing and there's no like close association. With a dead person, but she was in my backpack, going through everything in the airport, so through customs, through you know, security searches and they actually have, you have to have a certificate, right for the for the box of ashes. And you have to show it everywhere you go, you have to show it to people because the last thing you want is a security person at the airport, opening up the box of ashes going through it thinking it's drugs. Yeah. So and that's what like the the funeral director at the crematorium, I went to he had a good dark sense of humour, like I did like my humour was really really warped and twisted as a coping mechanism. And he literally said like, Look, you know, this is something you have to consider going through security, right? People are gonna think your mother has drugs and I'm just like, oh snap. They will as well won't things like just gonna be like this, this weird powder and like yeah, okay, fine. Get some certificates, all that jazz. So, they put you they take you through to one side like he goes through the queue is normal, but then you have to be very, very vocal about this is a dead person do not open this. And you can tell when certain people insecurity have and haven't dealt with the situation because of the way they react. First guy was a young dude. And I'm like, this is a dead person, please do not open this box. He's just like, what and I'm like, my dead mother is in this box. Please do not open the car. She didn't really didn't get it. And I like looked at the other guy. The other guy was just looking at me and I'm just like, he was an older black gentleman. I might May my dad mumps in the box. Can you tell him not to open it? And he's just like, Oh, okay. Yeah. And he came over and explain to the younger guys just learning. So this is they have to declare that they're, you know, they're travelling with a dead person. He didn't say it in that manner. But I was just so tired. I was just like, Look, I got a powdered human In a box just like don't write. Laugh, it's okay to laugh!

Joe Pearson :

I'm sure you need someone who's just gonna crack a joke and just cut that tension.

Shiggi :

Exactly, exactly. So and that's that that was the default I had because I was so emotionally exhausted, just full on crude Doc, awkward humour, just like came out at every point. So literally at this at the airport security check, you know, with between the young gentlemen and the old gentleman at the back, like I actually had to say it very loudly. And everyone around me was just like, oh my god, like, you know, this dead person where I'm holding it's, it's a, like, industrial plastic, right, that thick kind of plastic. That doesn't really mean very well, but it's been like, heat bent into a cube. I'm holding it Going there's a dead person in here, please do not open it. Right. So I just imagine people looking at me very stressed and tired kind of like holding this dead cube of human. So, yeah, like the younger the younger younger dude was just like, I'm so sorry. I'm like, Dude, it's fine. Like, I'm just messing with you. I'm tired. It's like, okay, like you just didn't know how to process the situation. And I clearly wasn't making it any better by making him the butt of a joke. But I went through and the older gentleman when he got my stuff is like Xavier, Is that yours? Like, yeah, like, I'm so sorry for your loss. Like he knew how to kind of go through two things and make some light jokes. So we're going to scan your mom, your mom's not going to be going through the X ray scanner. We have a special scanner at the end. So if you just want to go through I'm going to hold your mom for you like when you country deodorant, I'm going to give your mom to someone else. I'm gonna say that's kind of cool that you I'm reducing her to a box but you're still making keeping her as a human and I think that's it. I think they get training on that. Because if you kind of say like this box, someone who's in a far more delicate situation than myself, they'll probably like, freak out and be like, she's still a human being How dare you or something? Yeah.

Joe Pearson :

Then I'm guessing someone would do it and fake it and try and get drugs through, but 99 times out of 100 that's gonna be someone's relative. That's done. So yeah, got a treat, is that

Shiggi :

exactly. And then what they do is they actually do a chemical wipe on the box because they have like the setlist for you know, urns. Basically. That was the word I've been trying to look for for the last four minutes. I have a chemical test kit for urns specifically for arts or for lucky say boxes and, you know, it tests as to whether it is a dead person or drugs. Right. So the lady again, you know, talking very, very nice like the southern hospitality in Atlanta, Georgia is just amazing. That's where it was, by the way, I failed to mention that whole thing. So in Atlanta, Georgia is where I was. She was

Joe Pearson :

that was that why you flew this than that? Yeah. Cool.

Shiggi :

Yeah. So so like, you know, born in Kenya, parents were together, parents separated mom flew over to America. parents sent me off to boarding school in England. You know, because I'm such a terrible child now. And then yeah, like so I basically got to go from England to the us a quick turnaround in the UK and come back to Kenya to take my mom home. So yeah, so so like the US flight experience was great. Everyone was super compassionate. And you know, even when I was on the plane, like, I had a I had a biodegradable urn that I wanted to put my mom into, never happened, but like they put it in a special place and like the stewards and stewardesses were really accommodating and patient and looking after me which was nice because I was so tired. The UK little Not so much again, the the British kind of aspect of life just leave them to their own devices and don't make my video for them, they'll be fine. You know, have a paracetamol and go to sleep, but that kind of you know,

Joe Pearson :

yeah, yeah,

Shiggi :

exactly. So I was just like, Ah, okay fine, whatever it's okay just carry on doing the thing. And then getting to Kenya like this is the last bit the final bit which is the biggest for me WTF kind of experience compared to like my grandmother to my mother. So in a time getting home and the time getting back to Kenya, my uncle had to deal with the the tribal issues that we have. So a lot of people forget that in Africa, we still have tribes, right? And I am of two tribes. I can never remember what tribes I am I think I'm tighter. And Cuckoo. Maybe or Lulu or Lou? Yeah, I anyway, right? Two things. And one of them isn't part of what my original clan are anyway, because my mom married what my mom had me with someone else they didn't get married. But still on our own freaking property, we have to get the permission from the village elders, for someone to be buried on the family burial grounds. Right? And in our tribe, they don't believe in suicide. They don't believe in cremation and they don't believe in divorce.

Joe Pearson :

Right, tick tick tick, unfortunately then.

Shiggi :

Exactly. Right. So and I told my uncle, I'm like, dude, I am not entering any talks with any village elders one, I'm female, right? So I'm not going to listen to me anyway. To I can't speak the damn language. So they're probably going to cuss me out until next Tuesday. And three, I'm going to be so tired. Like, I will just shout at people and I will just get a spade and dig my mum's hole myself. Right. And you don't want that to happen because you have some state of you know importance in Division. So you deal with it, I come as the urn holder holder. And that's it. So he managed to convince them after like 10 days worth of discussions. And there's a lot of sanctions like she wasn't allowed to go through the main gate. We had to, like, tear open a hole in the fence for her to come through onto the family property because you know, she was the disgraced woman. And because they don't believe in cremation, we had to do a close casket funeral, which was ridiculous. And when I got told that I'm just like, Are you kidding me? Like, why she's a box of ashes? What do you need a coffin for? And like, you know, the coffin that they got was like, 600 quid and like, why do you need a 600 quid coffin? for like a box of ashes. I have a biodegradable urn with a tree seat in it and it's purple, which is my mom's favourite colour. And I've got the print sign as well because she loved prints like I had this whole thing that I wanted to play. In the ground, and then, you know, she was going to grow into a tree. So I wanted her to, you know, be in a specific place. But, um, no, she was in a closed casket and then the grounds that she was buried in was covered in cement. So, my mom turned into like Schrodinger cat, right? Because he doesn't know if she's alive or dead or whatever, because she's in an urn, in a coffin, in a cement cube in the floor, which they topped off because zombies or something, I don't know. Yeah, it was, I was mad, you

Joe Pearson :

You're tired, and you're, just, it's it's done.

Shiggi :

Yeah.

Joe Pearson :

Where she needs to be, done.

Shiggi :

done, right. And like the compassion that everyone had and coming together and learning from my grandfather's sister, so I think that will be grand auntie and then she kind of said that her father, so my great grandfather committed suicide. But no one knew. Because it was like in an African kind of tradition, suicide is terrible. Like it's it's shameful. And no one ever talked about it, but she did. And a lot of people, a lot of the village elders were really, really uncomfortable with this because a lot of them work, you know, his his level of friendships and acquaintances and stuff considering ages. So it was really interesting to kind of see a new shift of family dynamics open up because my family are heavily involved in the government in Kenya. So that's why a lot of the stuff I've been saying has been very kind of superficial, and I haven't gone into depth, because I don't know what will happen. I don't know i'm not i'm not saying enough for anyone to get upset. Let me just put it that way. But yeah, seeing the kind of solidarity and people having open conversations, new conversations about stuff, a little bit of, you know, annoyance here and there, but that's mainly fueled by alcohol but Beyond that, you know, it was really, really great. And then I chilled out for a few days went back into Nairobi. So our farm is away from Nairobi in the Rift Valley upwards luscious, green and wonderful. We're actually we have to drive over the equator to get to domain village. So that's how, yeah, the way it is. And

Gordon Hall :

was there anything like, at the equator to mark it?

Shiggi :

Yeah, it there's an equator line.

Gordon Hall :

(mumbles)

Shiggi :

Huh?

Gordon Hall :

like you see on the globe?

Shiggi :

Yeah, yeah. So that that line that's on the map is permanently actually just etched across the entire world. If you go like, I don't know, 5000 kilometres under the sea, there's still this white line. You're still at the equator, but you're in the Northern Hemisphere. Now look at the angel Fisher a little bit different here. But now there is a line there's line. It's that quite cool. I have many many times kind of gone southern hemisphere, southern hemisphere, southern hemisphere. Alicia's dancing across the line like an idiot because it makes a difference I don't know.

Gordon Hall :

state lines in America isn't it when they're like, Oh, I dunno if New York or Washington are next to each other or not.

Joe Pearson :

This is like, like a cool like quadrant state thing. You can buy each member of your family in a quadrant I

Shiggi :

thought there's gotta be something like that. I don't know. I don't know how show something. Maybe.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah. No, seven dial in London. That's different. Ignore me.

Shiggi :

Yeah, yeah. So so so we're out there, you know it. The area that we live in is amazing, but it is really far removed from everything. So you've got to be okay with being fairly low tech, like they got smartphones out there. But it's not like you can just pop around the corner into a local like village shop and charge your phone. Right? You can't, like they probably don't have electricity and they probably only have electricity for a set amount of hours per day. Like on the farm, we had a generator, right? So during the day, no electricity at night electricity for light for a few hours. And that's it. Which is the dream but also a nightmare. So, went back to civilization went back to Nairobi, chill there for a few days before you know, coming back home and starting a new chapter. So that was June basically all of that kind of wrapped up around a 10th of June, although there was still things going on and my uncle was now doing his thing. Because he's quite high up and yeah, I came back and got rid of the boyfriend because I was just like no, you you have done naughty things. He didn't By the way, he didn't contact me at all and the entire Time goes away. Even though I said like beforehand, like he didn't really know how to handle the situation. And I said, when I come home, can you just sit next to me quietly because that's what I need. When I'm out and about, everyone's asking me questions. I have to have answers. I have to keep on going. When I'm home. I just want to chill. Yeah. And like, you know, someone tells you what they need. Like, you should kind of try and accommodate that. If it isn't too much to ask for sitting down quietly with someone reading a book, like it's great or play on your phone or do some work or just just do whatever. But he didn't like that cuz he's like, he didn't understand why I needed that. And I'm just like, Okay, fine. So on the on the flip side, I'm like, Okay, cool. When I'm away, can you call me or like, no, call me not message me like messaging is fine. But can you call me at least once a day just to check on him? And he was like, Yeah, okay. And he didn't. And I know why cuz obviously the situation was so stressful. He just went off on various bender adventures that he would regularly do. So coming back gave him like two weeks just to kind of sort himself out he was going for a plant medicine ceremony. Right You know, that's the the in thing moment so we went for an Alaska

Joe Pearson :

I'm not a plant medicine ceremony.

Shiggi :

Okay, it's it's um,

Gordon Hall :

you're not heard about these Joe

Joe Pearson :

might be when I did all Oh yeah, yeah, I know what that is I've never had that there.

Shiggi :

Yeah, I mean, there's a range of them. There's like iOS guarantee Boga and Rafi and I suppose mushrooms kind of comes into that depending on how you look at it like so there's there's this you know, this whole psycho nautic space of of things. They usually I, I've known them to be called plant medicines because most of the indigenous ones are plant based. And then you know, you've got the chemicals

Joe Pearson :

normally don't they?

Shiggi :

Yeah. So he went off and did that, you know, in hopes to find himself and cure himself as of his addictions and stuff. I'm like, No, you're, you're just an asshole. Like, he can't be cured of being an asshole unless you like, look into yourself and just realise what was going on. So he went and did the thing came back still the same. And I gave him another week. And he, he, like, never even wanted to talk about my time away. And how it was, or even apologise for not like being there as a partner. And I was just I was just really quiet, just like, yeah, cool, Fine, whatever. And then he wanted to talk about his experience because he loves talking about himself. And then I'm like, Okay, so what about us? He's just like, well, I deserve happiness in my life. Like I agree. We should break up. He's like, what am I said, you need happiness in your life. We're not happy. Like, no, no, no. It's like yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, we're breaking up, you know, so I kind of ended it like that. And yeah, that was June July, July. Yeah. Basically everything like I'm back to, you know, being single and in my own world by the fifth of July. So that's Yeah, that's a really long, short version of everything. Just kind of outline an experience of being a suicidal bereavement survivor person.

Gordon Hall :

Wow. I mean, thank you for sharing that that. Like there's just so much there that I think will like, I think our listeners will definitely Yeah, get a lot from that. There's a lot that we can unpack I I almost feel like we need to extend the invite for a second. Because there's so much that I want to talk to you about, I know you've got a podcast of your own. Which I did actually listen to your first episode of that. So I heard much of the story that you've just told. You told it in the first episode. Yeah, you recorded about a year ago, I think.

Shiggi :

Yeah, it's September and it was the first episode suicide happened on a Monday. Yeah, what happened? Yeah,

Joe Pearson :

I mean, question would be sorry to cut you off Korean. I don't know. How do you feel comfortable talking about it? Cuz I'm guessing there's a lot of people in the world that have had similar experiences that would never dare to even tell the story, let alone explain emotions and stuff about something so personal. Do you do it from a place of maybe letting go of it and helping you process it?

Shiggi :

Yeah, so it I kind of going into the this, the side of things during the time I was away, even though my partner didn't support me at all. I actually used Instagram stories as a way to help me like process day to day going ons. And using Instagram stories with a close knit circle of friends and acquaintances, they would message me so we'd have like, personal messages and conversations and phone calls and all that kind of stuff. So I created a support network from social media in the thick of it because I didn't know how else to do with it and at least then you liquid Instagram stories that 24 hours and then it disappears. So don't have to worry about someone. You know, maybe someone has collected all of it as a weirdo, but I don't care. Like, you know, yeah, I did that. And then that first episode suicide happened on a Monday was a therapeutic method for me to just kind of verbally put stuff out there and kind of release from myself. So like you're saying is correct. I kind of I say I use my podcast as a form of therapy for talk therapy. Because I've had loads of psychotherapy in the years since I was 18. I've been to counsellors in slightly therapists of my own volition, so I couldn't afford my therapists, the usual therapist I have, because it's really expensive. So I thought, if I just talk about it, maybe I'll get the same thing out of it. I didn't, but I got something very different out of it by the idea of I'm talking, not because of myself, but because I know, there'll be at least one other person in the world wherever they are, who's going to go through the same stuff that I'm going to go through? So that's that's what I lead with. It's just fact that I am going to help one person and I can't be selfish in thinking that if I just give them a Hollywood version of it, you know, the light and fruity kind of like, oh, suicide happened, boohoo the end. Like, that's not gonna help anyone. Alright, so going into detail going into it, and I'm always open to people ask me any kind of question, you know, at any point and I will give you a full fully rule answer. Yeah. And I know some people can't deal with that. Like, you know, when I was talking about the way she shot herself and my expectations versus the reality of a crime scene. I actually had to tone that down for certain conversations in the UK because I'm aware that people aren't used to that, you know, gun violence in the UK doesn't really exist that much. But yeah, so So for the most part, I'm super open to the point that I have to be aware of how uncomfortable other people are when I talk about it rather than the other way around.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, I think it's really helpful. If you can't close something like that off really, you can, as long as you talk about with your family, maybe for those people that don't want to public domain it. Definitely in the open discussion with your family, different generation, telling the story to maybe a child that is was too young at the time and maybe grown up a little bit, that's probably going to be a harder story. Because there might have been a lot of emotion there a lot of raw emotion they still don't understand. It was a very extreme example of it as well as it Not like, you know, most people, you probably have this the event happened and then they just have to go to the funeral and sort of those it's out you have to travel around most of the globe and over the year. A couple again, to actually sort it all out. So your Americans have been filtered out on aeroplanes, which is the last place you want to be when you're dealing Yeah, you're stuck on a little cabin with recycled air. People. It's

Shiggi :

Yeah, I'll say whiskey whiskey was my friend on the planes. It was it was boyfriend whiskey and I didn't do like a lot of my friends was like, are you okay? You didn't take like diazepam on the plane like no, I'm not that kind of person. I don't need you know, to completely disconnect. I just need to sleep. A couple of whiskies and like a hot chocolate and I'm good. So that was my kind of go to but yeah Leading leading will have I realised like in hindsight on you know kind of looking back it was a lot for sure. And I spoke with some people were like you know there's with a situation that I had and having to be a point of the spear right you know that the piercing kind of person that leaves everything I'm very good at like shutting down my emotions getting the job done and then dealing with this huge freaking tombola of just like here's all the emotions now that you've done the work and like cry and laugh and you know all that jazz. And then you got these other set of people who just break down completely and can't do a thing. All right. And I think one lady she studies actually studied psychology understood, you know, armchair, philosopher. She's like your upbringing created your ability to deal with a situation this way because you know, you've been on your own so much, you've always had to look after yourself. Yeah. So when people People ask you questions you feel is your duty to have answers were some people who have been brought up in a more wholesome or, you know, kind of more unified family units. Like they feel that they're okay to like just crumble because the family unit will take care of everything. Yeah, you know, even if you're the eldest child and your mother's died, there's still the uncle around and the cousins and you know, like various other people who will kind of support that. Or as I was here, my uncle's over there, and my auntie was like on the farm ready, but she doesn't really talk to anyone. She's a bit mad. And like, you know, just there's no, there's no support network. So I just had to lead forward and everyone else folded.

Gordon Hall :

Hmm. You mentioned in the episode that I listened to this, you described suicide as a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Mm hmm. And that for me, I have not heard Put like that before, but it, it really kind of made it. It made me see it like it all in a completely new way. And I guess if you got anything that you would say to anyone that maybe is is worried about someone or is maybe going through this or something like that just as a way of and I know you mentioned in that episode, you talked about hope a lot. And what happens when that goes, and I guess if you could maybe comment a little bit on that.

Shiggi :

Yeah, absolutely. So it's interesting, like because you've listened to the episode, every time we're talking about things I'm just like, Oh, yeah, I said that and I said that like you know, I think because of the role clarity I had at the time, I just kind of threw everything out very, very kind of from the heart and now I've kind of I've I've made it a little bit superficial while still being deep. So yes, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem and I have three marks of suicidal My NHS record. Alright, so I've been there I've attempted suicide thankfully failed. And with with from the personal side of things and I'm going to try and look at this from two points so from the personal side of things, you know, being able to understand yourself and your patterns and your habits is really really crucial to being able to see it's not a line it's actually a full on zigzag but you know, there's a trend being able to see the trend towards a suicidal phase or a suicidal kind of day because you're not going to be right as rain one second and then suicidal. right there's, there's, there's an actual kind of, you know, play out that happens. It could be as fast as a few hours right where you are as far as right and and you're suicidal in a few hours, but there will always be triggers kind of going through that entire time. So I have a thing that I call dark Dog Days or dark dog moments. And I don't know if you Ever seen the meme of like a guy? And that's just as big dark dog? That's like depression, right?

Joe Pearson :

Yes. Yeah.

Shiggi :

Yeah. So my dark dog isn't depression my dog dog is suicide, right? Because I feel when that dog dog is like sitting on your chest, you're not really able to communicate to anyone because you've gone out of the light. And now you're in a dark phase. And the idea of reaching out to someone right now is it doesn't happen, no matter how well intentioned people are saying like, Oh, you know, whenever if you're ever feeling, you know, bad or anything, just reach out like, I won't.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, doesn't work. It doesn't work. Yeah, yeah.

Shiggi :

If you want someone to reach out or someone feels that they need to reach out, they need to be able to know the steps to the dark room so that if they're walking towards it, they kind of be like, I need help like now because like if I don't, I'm going to go into that space right and up on the

Gordon Hall :

the like, the red Like almost in your own psyche, yeah,

Joe Pearson :

you can stop yourself get knowing that the people around you that have the awareness have actually built the relationship where you are the go to person, you've done so much for someone these little bits, and you're maybe quite an open minded person that's not going to judge. Because if someone comes to you with something as desperate as that, the last thing they want is someone to panic, because that's what they're doing. So you need that calm, cool. We're going to go to the coffee shop, and we're going to go and eat an ice bomb. That's what we're gonna do. Yep, we're gonna go back. Exactly. That's in your life. And we've all got people like that. I'm sure. Hopefully parents might be friends. So it's having those people I'm thinking.

Shiggi :

Definitely. And, and, like, again, the flip side of that is if you're an individual, and the reason why I'm so open about this now is because I've seen the, the, the end, I've seen the end game. Ah, a beautiful circle. I've seen the end game, right. And it's not pleasant, because my mom built herself up to be an island, right? And she built herself to be like the palm tree on the island where, you know, she grows and she benefits and she can create a life on her own of her own speed and she doesn't need anybody. And I think that's so fundamentally wrong to have especially as an individual and I know I have it like I'm a very you know, headstrong person, I get things done. You don't need to know what's going on with me everything's fine. And after seeing my mom and her life, like nothing is fine. Everything is broken. Most days I'm really depressed and I hate myself. Right? And being okay to say that, you know, to people who only see you as a strong person. Like you say you'll there'll be a shift that will happen with your friends were like certain people that only see you as a strong person and don't understand how to process us being human will kind of like start withering away a little bit because there are obstacles needing you like for a very specific role, and you're not you're no longer that role so they no longer need you. So it's just like, Oh, well, okay, go away. But then other people will be like, holy crap, I've been waiting for you to be a little bit more open for so long because every time I try and knock on the front door of your frickin Fort Knox, you like, open a little hatchet and go, everything's fine go away. And they're like, and they're just like, you finally open the door and I can finally give you a hug. Right? I know. You don't like hugs. I, I love hate hugs. I love hugs. But when people like hug me because I'm in a weak space, it makes me feel super awkward. Yeah, right. So I'm cold

Joe Pearson :

but it's admitting it isn't it. It's going I actually need a hug. Actually.

Shiggi :

There really is. And it's not that bad. Like it's okay to be human. Right. And I think that's the problem. And a lot of us have especially men, right, because the suicide rate of men is higher than that of women. Because men have insanely impossible standards. They have to, you know, reach and attain and be, you know, for various reasons. So from from birth, like Boys to Men get all these kind of unrealistic things. And if they can't reach those standards, you know, society basically rejects them. And then if they're rejected, which is the worst thing, worst feeling experience to have as a human being because we're such society driven creatures, then this is like, well, the pain of that, you know, rejection leads to tired being tired leads to hopelessness, then, you know, just go So, from that side, you know, reaching out and being open and being, being okay with being vulnerable is really, really important. And then from the flip side of being a friend, it's all about never giving up on that person. Right? Even if they throw, I don't know, fire coals and poop at you. I don't know, whatever. Whatever a person like you know, Literally figure to their whatever they throw at you. You know, see it as a sign see it as Okay, maybe that is the last step before they go into the darkroom. So I'm just going to be there for them. And like you rightfully say, it's like, I'm gonna take them out to a coffee. And we're just gonna have a nice button. We're just going to chat absolute bollocks for like, two hours. And then I'm going to go home with them. We're going to, I'm going to make sure to get home, okay? And then I'm going to tell them, I'm calling you tomorrow, you know, and we're going to have a chat. That's not always going to work. Some people aren't going to be, you know, too far gone. And it's unfortunate, but I think just having that openness is really, really important.

Joe Pearson :

Hmm, I think it's a power thing as well for people that actually take that final step. They want to have that last bit of control. Maybe they've lost control of so many things in their life that they go You know what, I'm going to make this decision because it's gonna be me, and and that's horrible to think about, but I think that's a little bit what goes into it. You You got to be able to understand the mindset How can someone get there? How can someone get there? Very very. Yeah, and you're right we've been actually really all right men. I think it comes from teenage years. I think it really gets drawn in then you've got testosterone pumping through your veins, too much of it, your behaviours all over the place. So eventually, by the time you're 18 to 20, you really have to become a man. And that's, that's even harder. That's even harder. Yeah, even though that's drilled into our heads, what does that even mean? Like there's not the man of 5200 years

Shiggi :

ago? It isn't like So a question I can ask you guys is like when was the last time you openly cried in front of someone? Go

Joe Pearson :

Ah, top of my head for probably within the last year or so probably very my girlfriend maybe. But that's someone in a very emotional level. past that. You talking childhood? Yes, child. You're not allowed to do that. It's actually a weakness in our head. Yeah, it's a weakness.

Shiggi :

Yep. And it shouldn't be like crying isn't a weakness crying is a very valid way of expressing yourself when words and actions fail. You know, I don't cry because I had a weirdly traumatic experience. I didn't realise this traumatic until I worked with a psycho therapist. When I cried as a child, one of the housemates we had would always bring me up to a mirror and say, Stop crying, you look ugly. So I don't cry in front of people. So you know, if a boy gets that and like, it's not gonna be as extreme as maybe it will be a mirror. But, you know, if a father says stop crying real men don't cry. Right? Even as a flippant comment to an 11 year old boy, right? Because 11 year old boys like when you're going through your, you know, just like you said, it's a saucer on yours. You're going to get angry. You're going to get frustrated. You're going to want to be defiant against your parents. But you don't want to be defined, but this thing in you that urges you to kind of try and find who you are and stand on your own two feet, but you can't because you're only 11. And then you just cry and then you're getting too old, you're too old to cry. And then you're just like, you know, you just get all of that. And I think that's a huge factor. Just the idea of vulnerability. For guys, especially such an alien, an unfriendly concept,

Joe Pearson :

and I think it has to come from a dad or a father figure, I think that has to be the guy who steps in sits with his son or whoever and just just cries with him or does something like that and makes it okay. You know, it has to come down to those kind of people around you because your child and men, we develop a lot lot slower than women a lot slower. I'm 34. I think most 24 year old women are a lot more switched in on either a lot more done than I am for sure. When I was probably 12 years old, mentally thing. Oh, yes. And you think about some of the little events you did around that time. And it was all to prove that you were the man. You were the man you were. There's a lot of group mentality I think as well with men. When we get together, it's it's always competition. It's not a collective. You know, not all the time, but certainly in school years college and those kind of see it can be quite toxic and to these kind of mental problems later on. Because you have to deal with these emotions when real events proper life events hit you. And you break apart. Yeah. Hmm. Just a lot of pressure on your shoulders. And that's why am I down that mindset like we're talking about, they don't know how vulnerable so they do the one thing that they think they can do which is which is do something in action, unfortunately

Shiggi :

during a permanent solution to frickin temporary problem.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah. Have you talked about a massive change in your life and introduced slightly what you're into now? What is the future for you?

Shiggi :

So with everything going on, like you know with the pandemic has actually been the best thing to happen to me in a long time. Because it's caused me to, to stay still. Right and stop like fluttering about kind of like just doing too many projects not focusing on anything specifically so before pre pandemic you know are still coaching executive clients or you know, boutique personal training spaces while still like creating this business. But now, most of my clients have either stop trading entirely or I'm trading them online through like, you know, zoom or whatever, which has been great because only my favourite one stayed anyway like the guys I really like talking to and trading and it's not even trading. We're just chatting. I just make them do stuff you know. Great. What

Joe Pearson :

do you say personal training or not? Yeah, yeah, personal training. Now do some press ups on the zoom,

Shiggi :

literally that says just like, oh, that's really good to hear you got five more burpees to go like, Oh, damn, I thought you forgot. It's like, Oh, I count. So I managed to pull that in. So the audio businesses, I'm really, really focusing on that. And I'm actually focusing on my DJing as well, because ultimately, with my DJing, I'm actually creating a whole outfit and the whole story and the story behind my DJing, which is something that will probably come up on my podcast eventually, once I figured out is, it's a story of, of becoming. Alright, so it goes around the very classical kind of arc of identity, self identity and identity within, you know, the world and the universe and everything, but through the eyes of an Android. Alright, so I'm turning myself into a robot, and it's going to be amazing, man, it's gonna require time. So like that one that's going to be eventually a thing that will you know, maybe end up in the Royal Albert Hall and all that kind of stuff like Cirque du Soleil that's the that's the plan. Okay. But a little bit closer to home is I want to go back home to Kenya and open a mixed movement arts space. So I've done martial arts since the age of six so all of them right now do Brazilian Jiu Jitsu article and it's it is kind of I keep was like No it's fine we're just aggressively hugging each other like no shake. It's consensual and murder. So it is like consensual simulation sorry, of murder. That was very, very important because we're not actually killing each other. It's a simulation murder. Yeah, we're pretending I've told you Okay, Okay, enough. We're done. We're done.

Joe Pearson :

You're killing me Stop

Shiggi :

it. There's a phrase whereas it's a tap, snap or nap. We have When it comes to submissions in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, so if we hold, if we hold someone to submission it's lovingly aggressive, okay? But you hold someone in a submission, right? If the submission is on, it's all about ego of the other person who's you know, having the submission done to them. So you must tap. If you don't tap to tell the person you've got the submission, then either that ligament or bone will snap, or you go to sleep because it's a chokehold on the neck and you fall asleep. Right? So that's, that's the thing about it. It's basically check your ego slight tap snapper nap, which is very succinct,

Gordon Hall :

quite like that actually. Now you've explained it, quite a good way to live your life almost.

Shiggi :

Well, like the reason jujitsu is very, very very, uh, it attributes itself to life, like a lot. Which is why like I I always tell people like Do jujitsu because it's it's so fundamentally different to any other martial art that it humbles you. And it helps you actually kind of get through life a lot better because you will struggle in jujitsu, like when you first go in as white belt, like, everything doesn't make sense. It's all crazy. Why Am I dying? I'm not dying, but oh my god, I can't breathe, but I can breathe. Like, you know, it's just like, all these kind of simulations of life are happening to you without any bad things actually happening. And as you go on, you know, you kind of progress. I'm only a blue belt. So I can't even begin to profess what it's like to be a black belt. Give me about seven years. But even as you progress up, like once you have an understanding of what you're doing, so you have a vocabulary. So you know, you're, you're in your 20s, right? And you kind of know, you have an idea of the way the world works, but there's still a whole bunch of like, bullshit out there. Right? But you've kind of found your footing so you're just like, you know what, even though there's a lot of bullshit out there, I'm okay. It's cool. It can hit me and it's gonna suck, but I'm still Gonna be here on my own two feet. And that's kind of what Brazilian jujitsu gives you. Like, even if I roll with guys and women like because we're, you know, they encourage you to do mixing, mix, rolling and different weight classes as well, even though in competitions, they're very strict on on the weight classes. But when you when you practice, it's good to go for a heavier, you know, various people. So I'm very flexible, but I'm also very tiny, and I roll against bigger guys, and I'm just like, I'm going to die. But okay, let's go. You know, and you know, because they're bigger than you, they're going to try and be on top of you, in whatever way shape or form that is. So your ultimate goal is not to let them get on top of you. Right. So you turn into a tiny little squirrel on an elephant for some time and some like situations are happening. It's not happening. It's not happening. And then you get their back and then you're like, Oh, I get to choke you and now you're choking or freaking elephant, and they're tapping and it's like, I've won. I did it. I didn't die. You know. That's the dream. I haven't done that yet. I've seen other people do so yeah, so I want to open the mix movement hearts pay, sorry, massive tangent. Back in Kenya just to well bring some Brazilian jujitsu isn't in Africa that much. It's coming up now. And I've connected with a lot of athletes there and schools there. And I'm talking to them now, like, with Instagram, just to kind of establish an understanding of what what the like temperature of temperament of mixed martial arts is in Africa, it's coming up, right. There are definitely a lot of amazing fighters that are going to come in and like just dominate in UFC in the years coming. And I want to be a part of that because like, the lifestyle and the respect that you get out of doing a martial art like Taekwondo and karate is is fairly, you know, big over there. So mix movement art space means I can get people to do Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, I can get them to do muy Thai. I can get into boxing and all those kind of things. But I can also bring the economical side of it in because Kenya is amazing like the coast Mombasa is beautiful right and everyone goes to Thailand to go do their you know fitness Muay Thai whatever things and I'm like so Kenya's an option look it's so pretty it's so beautiful So yeah, that's and rock climbing so basically mix movement arts and rock climbing is the plan going forwards and I'm getting there

Gordon Hall :

slowly but surely will you be doing beginner classes? Yes

Joe Pearson :

god yes trip oh yeah equator

Shiggi :

Yeah. Like he can do that I think people will do everyone will do like the equated that so make up an equator down site we can like go into the main tower to fight like you go

Gordon Hall :

to the northern hemisphere.

Joe Pearson :

I don't know if I've seen this on again on my family or something. This summer. Ready? Wait, this is wrong. This is the toilet the water in the toilet bowl spin the other way. On one hand versus the other, I might completely make

Shiggi :

that up. No, you're not so so here's the weird thing I remember in primary school because we, you know, I went to school in prime in Kenya and Nairobi is southern hemisphere, and then we'd always go up country to play against upcountry schools and stuff in the Northern Hemisphere. I am like 70% sure you're right that like because of the the pole the polarities between like north and south. Like there's a there's a different spin. But I also vaguely remember watching someone debunk it. Okay, so yeah,

Joe Pearson :

it could be a thing that also might be true or false. Okay,

Shiggi :

fine. I'm pretty sure it's a thing when I when I go back home, whenever you know travel, things have lifted and like probably by Well, I don't know if there's a third episode in here, but like, all I'll message you guys and be like, hey, look, I did a video. Either it works or it doesn't So yeah, but that's the that's the good news is I'm I'm super focused. So the audio business, I'm focusing on that audiobooks, podcasts, social audio kind of things, and it's coming along really well because a lot of people in the pandemic, I've realised like their online assets, like they haven't got an audio portfolio. And I'm just like, come to me, let me make one for you. It's been all organic,

Joe Pearson :

absolutely booming, audio industry. More than it is more than video I think, well, not more than video but it's certainly catching up.

Shiggi :

For me, it's gonna get there with the likes of like, you know, voice activated AI. I've been reading into this because it's going to be huge, like, and it's already happening now. Where you talk to, you know, your Google or Siri or what's the Microsoft one that's crashed and burned, significant Catalina? Cortana, something like that. Yeah. Whatever anyway, that one that that whole kind of area like is is coming up so quickly it's the same I went out to I just cycled through Central London when it was I felt like 28 days later so I just went out there and it was pretty pretty nuts and I'm just looking at buildings and I just you know do the the Hey Google thing to my phone shit so that's how my okay I have two phones and both of them have picked up on so if you hear weird words happening like my other phone is like picked up me saying that I thought I said a quiet enough for it not to pick up listening. Um, I basically did an architecture tour with the Google search function where I asked it a thing so phone who created so and so building in London and then it finds whoever's like website and gives you the first paragraph of The page it's found that is relevant to your question. So with that, over time, I reckon if people are jumping in on this and creating vocal kind of clips to go with the articles I reckon the search engine might jump onto that and you can hear someone natively speak about the thing.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah, I think that's a generated voice read it out. Yeah, actually got, you know, you're asking about I know that. Why is JK Rowling The only out of all the people?

Joe Pearson :

Why is

Shiggi :

she she's so hot right now. Yeah, yeah. for all the wrong reasons doing

Gordon Hall :

so great in the news right now.

Joe Pearson :

Maybe that's what it is deep down. She's like, Harry Potter straight up a bed when I've been making films really anymore without doing spin offs. She's like, I'm just gonna be controversial. And we're gonna sell books because if you buy it again, maybe I don't know.

Shiggi :

She's doing she needs to stop.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah, yes, awful. But yeah, I can just imagine you know, if you go to Buckingham Palace, you've got the Queen narrating the description of Buckingham Palace and maybe that would be a great gig to record that one. But yeah, and

Joe Pearson :

Queen, she was 90 years old and she's doing audio books

Shiggi :

in heck. I think that's one of the last things she can do. Well,

Gordon Hall :

perhaps,

Joe Pearson :

maybe royalty's dried up a bit in the pandemic as well. I don't know. Prince Andrew, etc. Exactly. The minute so.

Gordon Hall :

So, yes. Is there any good news that we can end on some positive story from your life or from your city or that you've just seen on Facebook this morning?

Shiggi :

I think it's going to be a I suppose a controversial positive but like over the weekend, London pride happens. And for the first time in a very, very long time. Pride was a protest, you know, where queer Black Lives Matter, trans black lives more importantly, like trans Black Lives mattering and processes, you know, just going through going through the roads, just kind of seeing an actual protest happening that actually meant something that wasn't a corporate, you know, Fest, right? Because I've, I'm, I'm a bisexual black woman. And I've never really gone to London pride much just because I felt it was a bit of a money spinner.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah, I mean, I went one year and there was the conservative float, the Conservative Party pride float, and, you know, when there's that one and then tescos you know that things have got a bit to corporate.

Shiggi :

Yeah, right. I mean, of course, there are going to be you know, LGBTQIA people Everywhere Oh, yeah, you know, it's just it's just, it should be just about the people not about the corporations. So for me seeing, you know, because of the pandemic, corporations couldn't, you know, get people together like for them to encourage people to be together? It would be bad. So what got left was the actual people who mattered, and they went out and they are obviously risking their lives, but there's so much more important out there. Your than COVID. You know, COVID is eventually going to, you know, do its thing and self correct. So, yeah, the trans Black Lives Matters March and actually seeing pride as a protest for the first time in a very, very long time made me super happy and I think people should be happy about that, too.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely weird. I

Gordon Hall :

wasn't able to get to the protests in Manchester because I was at work, but a number of my friends were there. They said that, even despite the fact that it was pouring with rain, it wasn't really powerful place to be in my house man. She said she was holding up a trans. Like practice. Yeah, the more it rained, the higher she held it.

Shiggi :

Yeah.

Gordon Hall :

Which I was just like, yeah, absolutely

Shiggi :

amazing.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah, I think that's fantastic news to end on. And we're clocking in at about an hour and a half. You know, if I don't edit this down too much, this will be one of our longest episodes ever. So, yes,

Shiggi :

record Joe Rogan coming.

Joe Pearson :

That was a fantastic chat with shiggy incredibly humorous, hard hitting. I really expected that to be a very serious chat and it was at times but that was incredibly funny.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah, definitely didn't expect to laugh that much when we went into that channel. at all. But yeah, if anyone is interested in following sugar and seeing what she's up to, she's on Twitter and Instagram at @elshig that's @ E-L-S-H-I-G. Give her a follow and see what she's up to. She's done some pretty interesting and pretty funny Instagram stories that I've seen over the last few days after I followed her. I don't know if you've seen anything funny.

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, I've seen a couple. Yeah, pretty funny. Again, a bit like this podcast, some serious stuff, and some pretty funny stuff as well. Yeah, great news. Yes, shed at the end. Actually. I wasn't expecting that. And obviously, I was aware that pride happened, but I wasn't aware of the fact it wasn't this big corporate event, particularly London, as we've often found.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I think, you know, we've had a good news the last two weeks has been about protests and pride and The sense of people really coming together to stand against the in justices that are going on in the world. And I just want to say that Liminal podcast, we absolutely stand behind that. And the protests for Black Lives Matter for pride for black trans lives. In particular, we stand behind that and we stand with that. But if you are protesting or shopping or doing anything outside at the moment, just please do stay safe Remember to socially distance where a god damn mask and just look out for each other?

Joe Pearson :

Yeah, just wear a mask. It's really not an inconvenience, and it might actually protect you. It's not just for the sake of it funny enough.

Gordon Hall :

Yeah. And you know that I've seen quite a lot of people going around wearing a mask just covering their mouth, not covering their nose. And I saw a meme on on Instagram and we'll share it to the Liminal podcast feed. Today on our story just for the hell of it, but it was showing the person wearing their face mask over their nose. And it said, wearing a face mask like this. It's just the same as wearing your underwear like this. And I'll leave it up to your imaginations or checking out our Instagram story for you to see what that image is. But, yeah, other than that, I don't think there's anything else that we've got that we need to talk about today. Is there, Joe?

Joe Pearson :

I think that's it. It's been a very long episode. You've made it to this point. You are a true warrior. We'll go in Joe Rogan's, though, apparently.

Gordon Hall :

Yes, indeed. Well, it's been a fantastic chat. It's been fantastic to have you to have us in your ears for the last hour and a half. But now it is time to say goodbye so it's goodbye from myself. Bye for me. And thank you once again to Harry for the incredible music to Haley for the absolutely wonderful logo. And to Lear for all of us Biffing admin that she got does. Cheers again. See ya bye